What is more stable?

[Explorocam]

Thats pretty sick, Do you think you would have more stability and efficiency from a flat Octo? Or, is the X8 just as efficient? Is that running on 4S or 6S? What flight controller are you using?
I've never heard of the rusty's gimble. I'll do a search.
Really nice setup, and that's running the Supro 2814s?

 

[Razzil]

kloner, how did you mount that av100 to the frame? I have an av130 and was thinking of mounting it someway similar to what you have done there. It looks like its up there pretty good. do you have a close up picture of the mounting section by any chance. I have a turnigy talon hex frame with axi-2217-motors i'm in the process of building. Only two things left to do really is decide ona landing gear setup and debate on using my hoverfly-pro-gps or get a dji wookong.

explorercam, the axi-2217 motors ... I'll never buy anything but. Never an issue, I have four on a quad, and 6 on this hex i've mentioned above.

 

[Explorocam]

The longest flight time that I could find with just a quick run through the calculator were the T-Motors AT3530-570 and the Axi 2814/22 765. The T-motors seems to give a longer flight time according to the calculator. Ts are on 12x45 props and the Axi are on 11x38 prop. Maybe I'm not considering something, but it looks like the T-motors will give the longest flight time and look powerful enough. But I've heard the Axi are very very good motors, however I read a post that suggested the T-motors are good if you don't want to spend the cash on the Axi motors. I'm just learning.

T-Motors
View attachment 8756View attachment 8757

And the Axi
View attachment 8758View attachment 8759

 

[Explorocam]

kloner, how did you mount that av100 to the frame? I have an av130 and was thinking of mounting it someway similar to what you have done there. It looks like its up there pretty good. do you have a close up picture of the mounting section by any chance. I have a turnigy talon hex frame with axi-2217-motors i'm in the process of building. Only two things left to do really is decide ona landing gear setup and debate on using my hoverfly-pro-gps or get a dji wookong.

explorercam, the axi-2217 motors ... I'll never buy anything but. Never an issue, I have four on a quad, and 6 on this hex i've mentioned above.

Cool, ran the 2217/20 840 through the calculator and I got about 2 minutes less than on the 2814s. I'll compare the prices.

Rusty's Gimbal look pretty nice, like a cinestar but way cheeper.

 

[Explorocam]

Saw the 130 http://photohigher.co.nz/products/camera-gimbals-and-kits/av130/av1-av130-standard-gimbals-as/

I would need the Skyline on the roll and tilt as well if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Razzil]

I purchased a crapy camera mount, tried modifying it and eventually put it in the parts department, filed under box 127. I kept my eyes open and picked up a used AV130 for $555Canadian shipped. Couldn't belive it, nearly brand new, not a sratch. Looking at this mount compared to what I had, I think I'd spend the money on the AV mount. That being said, and as you just mentioned, the Skyline or the built in WK or Hoverfly tilt and roll. No experience in it, but I'm thinking the skyline. I'm not sure how smooth the built in tilt and roll are in the WK with a good gimbal.

 

[Explorocam]

@Razzil,
I've heard the WKM gimbal control is not great, that is why most people go for a separate gimbal controller. Your comment about used is very inspiring.

 

[kloner]

I'm still in the tuning phases of my rig, but this is what i got off it the other day

i added a small amount of post stab to 2 of the clips, but there 500 foot dives. the heli was running 40-50 mph... 10-15mph winds blowing from the pacific up into that canyon

HFP pro
Leopard motors
ipeaka simonK

And i'm just getting going. Had the gear ratio slider off a couple ticks so it over comps from time to time. That's using the controller on the HFP for gimble

 

[Explorocam]

explorercam, the axi-2217 motors ... I'll never buy anything but. Never an issue, I have four on a quad, and 6 on this hex i've mentioned above.

What size were your props? How heavy was your craft?

 

[Razzil]

2.38kg with 11 inch props, fpv flying this past weekend in -18C with the wind chill, 30km/hr winds I got exactly 11 minutes when my lipo alarm started buzzing. That was on a cold battery, the first one I got about 15 minutes of not so intense flying and it being warm. Thats on the quad in the signature, hopefully get this hex up in the air soon with pretty much the same specs, weighing 3.6kg.

 

[Explorocam]

Cool,

Your hex is going to be 3.6kg? That's pretty light. I'm no expert by any means and that's why I'm asking so many questions to you guys, but do you think You'll have to us 28 size motors on your hex?

Will you use the Optos, are you thinking of going for the simonk esc or something like that. I've heard the SimonKs and the Castel Creations are faster.

 

[Explorocam]

BTW,
what's the fast ESC now that I've added that to the post above?

 

[Explorocam]

I looked at these motos a while ago. I know that they are huge.
http://rctimer.com/index.php?gOo=goods_details.dwt&goodsid=806&productname=
I saw that a guy from RC groups was using them on his Carbon Core Hex 950.

He (TonyTypeS) wrote the following
"Without any gear I was able to fly for well over 15 minutes (25 minutes to be exact just hovering there in GPS mode) With camera gear I would say flight times will be anywhere from 10-15 minutes easy. I am using a 6s 8000mAh pack. The 950 is probably over kill for the NEX, but I like it due to it's size because it's easy to see. I flew it in 20+mph winds today and I was surprise how stable the larger setup flew."

But from I'm hearing and what Tony is saying this may be a little bit overkill, but the flight time sounds superb.

 

[Explorocam]

Nice, I'd like to hear more as it develops.

 

[Explorocam]

I was speaking to a customer of Bergen R/C Helicopters today and he told me that Bergen RC uses OS Motors and totally swears by them. So Ran the motors through the calculator and the flight times look wonderful.

This is what I calculated with the eCalc.
View attachment 8796View attachment 8797
Like I said before, I'm still learning so I may not be considering something. I know it's a little overkill for the 950 carrying a NEX-5 but it looks good on paper. What is really impressive is when I select 4X4S, 6000mAp batteries.
I don't mind spending the extra money on the motors if they are good and reliable.

 

[PeterLester]

The simple answer to the original question is that a longer lever requires a greater change of distance to acheive the same angular degree change. As the fulcrum of each prop arm is the center of the ariframe, the larger diameter airframes are mechanically more stable. This is why a "+" configured multicopter is more stable than a "x" configured multicopter but only by a few millimeters. The other factor that affects stability and response time would be the vertical position of the center of gravity. The lower it is, the more mechanically stable will be the airframe..... hence the dihedral of a high winged aircraft. And the S800 shows evidence of something similar to dihedral where each of the six arms are tilted above horzontal relative the the airframe center.

 

[SimonS]

Hi,

A newbie here that is a Carboncore owner. I have the Y6. I bought it as a 650mm but I now also have the 950 arms too.

First off, let me say that I have no connection with Carboncore other than as a satisfied customer. I can say that the Carboncore kits are beautifully made and everything fits. No drilling or filing required.

Regarding the mention of MT3515 and MT4008's on their website - this is not a recommendation for motors to use, it is purely a statement that they will fit if you want them to. Cameron who runs the company tries not to make any recommendations regarding motors and electronics. I recently email Electriflite who are mentioned on his site and got the following recommendations:

T-Motor MT2814 770Kv 4S lipos and 12x4 props should give you a payload lifting capability of around 2Kg to 2.5Kg (4.4-5.5lbs)
T-Motor MT2826 550Kv 5S lipos and 13x5 props should give you a payload lifting capability of around 3Kg to 3.5Kg (6.6-7.7lbs)
T-Motor MN4012 400Kv 6S Lipos and 15x5 props should give you a payload lifting capability of around 4Kg to 4.5Kg (8.8-9.9lbs)

Those payloads are in addition to the weight of the machine.

When I bought my kit I bought various bits from all over the place. If I had purchased it all from one place then the errors in my spec might have been spotted and money saved. The first mistake was that I calculated that you could fit props of over 18" to the Y6 650 so I used ecalc and decided on T motor MN4012's (second mistake)with 16x6 props. They fitted fine on the upper motors but I had forgot all about the undercarriage! So plan B was then either to go to smaller props (Low kv motors are more efficient with big props) of fit the 950 arms. The arms won.

The arms are a straight swap and the weight difference is only 10g per arm. With a Naza and 2x 4S 4000mAh it flys well in the hover and in gentle flying. Hard climbs, accelerations and descents cause it to wallow as the Naza tries to keep up. Large motors with large props have a lot of inertia so they do not speed up or slow down as fast as on a smaller machine (eg Discovery). At the moment I am only flying with a GoPro and/or a Nikon J1 so it is quite light. I have tried adding another kg of ballast and it is much more stable.

In hindsight, since I am not going to be carrying the weight of a 5D etc, it would have been better to have gone for the smaller motors from the start. I have now ordered a set of MT2814's and will downsize to 11 or 12' props. I'm also thinking of swapping the configuration from a Y6 to an H6 as the lower props on the Y6 are very close to the ground and I can see myself breaking a few props!

In short, Pick your motors according to your payload rather than just for efficiency. Changing from a 650 to a 950 is simply a case of changing the arms. All other parts are the same. To change from a Y6 to an H6 (or octo) will require a few more part (frame plates, ring mounts, arms etc) but is still easy to do. Spares support is very good.

For carrying a NEX5 I would start with the H6 650 and MT2814's and then change the arms if you really feel the need.

 

[Explorocam]

I haven't replied to this for a long time.

I'm very confused when I read the specs on T-motors and then run the same motors through the http://www.ecalc.ch/xcoptercalc.htm?ecalc&lang=en.
I'm trying to stick to 4S batteries and I'm looking at MN3510-13 700Kv. The AUW will be I suspect about 4Kg. if I run two 4S batteries.

Carbon Core 950
2x4S 5000mAh
Landing gear
brushless Gimbal.
and FPV gear.

I'm thinking about 4Kg.

I've seen others flying 4S to 6S but still not sure what to get. Nor do I completely understand the graph, what is the Y axis representing?
I really like what SimonS is saying above and it's very helpful. I'm planning to carry the NEX5 and think it's about 500g but maybe I'm wrong. I think the Carbon Core frame is about 500g and the landing gear is about 500g. The gimbal may be about 500g and 2 x 4S 5000mAh batts should be about 1150g, plus fpv gear. I'm thinking 3 to 4Kg bu maybe I'm wrong.

Has anyone here built similar rig? Am I out to lunch on this?

SimonS thanks I'm really considering what you wrote.

 

[Explorocam]

Hi,

A newbie here that is a Carboncore owner. I have the Y6. I bought it as a 650mm but I now also have the 950 arms too.

First off, let me say that I have no connection with Carboncore other than as a satisfied customer. I can say that the Carboncore kits are beautifully made and everything fits. No drilling or filing required.

Regarding the mention of MT3515 and MT4008's on their website - this is not a recommendation for motors to use, it is purely a statement that they will fit if you want them to. Cameron who runs the company tries not to make any recommendations regarding motors and electronics. I recently email Electriflite who are mentioned on his site and got the following recommendations:

T-Motor MT2814 770Kv 4S lipos and 12x4 props should give you a payload lifting capability of around 2Kg to 2.5Kg (4.4-5.5lbs)
T-Motor MT2826 550Kv 5S lipos and 13x5 props should give you a payload lifting capability of around 3Kg to 3.5Kg (6.6-7.7lbs)
T-Motor MN4012 400Kv 6S Lipos and 15x5 props should give you a payload lifting capability of around 4Kg to 4.5Kg (8.8-9.9lbs)

Those payloads are in addition to the weight of the machine.

When I bought my kit I bought various bits from all over the place. If I had purchased it all from one place then the errors in my spec might have been spotted and money saved. The first mistake was that I calculated that you could fit props of over 18" to the Y6 650 so I used ecalc and decided on T motor MN4012's (second mistake)with 16x6 props. They fitted fine on the upper motors but I had forgot all about the undercarriage! So plan B was then either to go to smaller props (Low kv motors are more efficient with big props) of fit the 950 arms. The arms won.

The arms are a straight swap and the weight difference is only 10g per arm. With a Naza and 2x 4S 4000mAh it flys well in the hover and in gentle flying. Hard climbs, accelerations and descents cause it to wallow as the Naza tries to keep up. Large motors with large props have a lot of inertia so they do not speed up or slow down as fast as on a smaller machine (eg Discovery). At the moment I am only flying with a GoPro and/or a Nikon J1 so it is quite light. I have tried adding another kg of ballast and it is much more stable.

In hindsight, since I am not going to be carrying the weight of a 5D etc, it would have been better to have gone for the smaller motors from the start. I have now ordered a set of MT2814's and will downsize to 11 or 12' props. I'm also thinking of swapping the configuration from a Y6 to an H6 as the lower props on the Y6 are very close to the ground and I can see myself breaking a few props!

In short, Pick your motors according to your payload rather than just for efficiency. Changing from a 650 to a 950 is simply a case of changing the arms. All other parts are the same. To change from a Y6 to an H6 (or octo) will require a few more part (frame plates, ring mounts, arms etc) but is still easy to do. Spares support is very good.

For carrying a NEX5 I would start with the H6 650 and MT2814's and then change the arms if you really feel the need.

Just curious but how is your AUW 2.5Kg at best?
I thought it would be heavier. Is it that my judgments on my weight are way off or is your setup a whole lot lighter?

 

[SimonS]

Firstly the 2.5kg was the Y6-650 with standard legs and no camera gear. Since that was posted I have converted it to an H6-950 with 2814's, the shorter of the new leg systems and the RCTimer GoPro brushless gimbal running an AlexMos board. With 2x 4s 5800 for power and a 4s 4000 to run the gimbal (overkill but all I had lying around) the weight is 4.1kg.

The new leg sets need to be used with the 950 arms as the battery carrier will blank the thrust from the rear motor if you use the shorter arms.

The new v2 firmware for the Naza seems to have eliminated the wallowing in descents.

The 3510's would be a good choice but for me, I would choose a lower kv version as they will turn bigger props and are more efficient. If you want to stick to 4s then I would have the 630kv.