Phobotic Centerpiece Brushless Gimbal Controller

Yes, as there will be for the foreseeable future. There's always something to improve and stuff planned. We're basing our product roadmap (F1 gimbal and lots of other stuff) on the same codebase as the CP so there'll be lots of updates.

We went bigger with the upcoming update as we're feeling very good about the performance in 1330; this allowed us to make 1331 not an "emergency fix" but a more thorough and calculated improvement which brings in some subjects that were under research for some time and we simply hadn't time to incorporate since launch.
 



Mactadpole

Member
All,

I have recently purchased my first brushless gimbal (quadframe v2) but have been trying to decide what controller to use with it. I have used servo-based gimbals for years but would like to get some decent video too. The CP looks very attractive but its hard to drop so much cash when what you see is mostly the complaints about a product on forums and not the successes. I must admit the long wait on FW 1331 is what has held me back from buying anything.

It has been mentioned several times that some sort of spreadsheet or other format for user details about their setup would be helpful. I quickly put together a google sheet that I have opened up for viewing and comments to see if it would be useful. I would like to incorporate any suggestions to the layout before allowing users to fill in data, that is if the community even sees a need for it. I am willing to maintain the spreadsheet for as long as needed.

Here is the link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

You can comment on the sheet directly or PM me to keep the thread here clean.

Thanks,
Shawn
 


Mactadpole

Member
All,

I have opened the user spreadsheet for the Centerpiece Gimbal for input.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QFmev59-NXFEOY5o9l_Z17cwKe7dK-62IvCgPVCL-E4/edit?usp=sharing

I know it is still lacking some of the key parameter values and I ask that the first of you inputing your data add columns on either side of Damping P (currently column L) for what is most important. I will be creating backup copies as often as I can but it is important you pay attention to what you are doing so as not to overwrite others data.

Please let me know if you have any questions. The only way this will help anyone is if those of you using a CP or CPHV share your data.

Thanks,

Shawn
 


SleepyC

www.AirHeadMedia.com
Anyone get the YAW working on larger cameras? GH3/4 5D?
After a lot of attempts by me, and many more by a friend, my gimbal constantly resets if there is any YAW motion.
 

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
Not yet. I just rebuilt my gimbal with the 3rd axis after having removed it to see if that was causing all my vibration issues. Made a custom dampening plate and got much better auto-tune values for 2-axis. I'm going to be running auto-tune soon to see if the addition if the 3rd axis now throws off the numbers.

I've got materials arriving today to build a desktop tuning stand so I don't need to mess with this thing on the 900mm hex on the floor of the office. :)

What is the gimbal you're using?
 
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jfro

Aerial Fun
Anyone get the YAW working on larger cameras? GH3/4 5D?
After a lot of attempts by me, and many more by a friend, my gimbal constantly resets if there is any YAW motion.

I have a DYS 5d with 6208 motors on all 3 axis and mine works with my gh3 or gh4. Using the same yaw setup and my DIY gimbal with 5208 motors on pitch & roll it also works.

I have a couple of "unproven" ideas as I've tired my CP on a smaller gimbal with BMPC and could get it to auto tune on my X8, but it jitters like crazy in the air. I gave up after just a few tries as I've heard too many others having issues with lighter gimbals.

1. I think the heavier the gimbal, the better chance you have.
2. Mounting to a very rigid frame. I've gotten better results with the gimbal attached directly to the bottom plate as opposed to a rail set. I'm not sure if it's the rails or the fact that it's hanging down farther from the center of gravity of the MR.
3. CF or G10 material may have less issues than aluminum.
4. Ant vibration, stiffer the better. Not sure what too stiff is.
5. After auto tune, I spent most of my time changing and testing the follow mode on yaw. I also set some limits on pitch.

My anti vibration setup is 16 balls between 2 plates. The bottom anti vibration plate hangs from the bottom plate of my MR via nylon standoffs. The yaw motor then hangs off the upper anti vibration plate via nylon standoffs.

On the advice of an end user, I re-calibrated the IMU and while I haven't been near a large body of water to check it, it does appear that my horizon is a bit better on sideway flying and yawing. I'm a pretty happy camper with my CP. But, I know a bunch of others that aren't. So they do have some work to do on the settings or firmware enhancements to achiever what they advertise.
 

SleepyC

www.AirHeadMedia.com
I have one of there firmest frames on the market the Hexacrafter. We have tried no vibe isolation, vibe isolation, and every conceivable variant possible. The pitch and roll are flawless, the YAW always breaks and goes into reset. We tried small motors large motors, belt drive, direct drive... I'm really coming to an end with the CP. What sucks is that the pitch and roll are great it's the YAW that is killing it for me. I just spent an hour looking up 32 bit alexmos boards which I swore I'd never do!
 

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
I just had the same experience today Sleepy. But I was using a bearing system from Jakub/Quadframe. I'm now thinking that the bearing may be bad - or at least messing with the tuning. The pitch and roll look good (at least Phobotic says the values look good), but the power tuning section for Yaw just counts up to 100 and then snaps out of tuning with some taunting beeps.

I swear, those beeps should be the end of PAC Man game sound..... Totally defeated. :)

Tomorrow I have a few things to try - maybe lose the bearing system and just run the gimbal hanging from the yaw motor? Trying to tick each variable off the list.

Sleepy: What gimbal? The Hexacrafter?
 

jfro

Aerial Fun
SleepyC, you figure out what's wrong with my SuperX and I'll figure out your yaw? LOL....

How much does your gimbal and camera weigh? Is the full gimbal assembly fairly well balanced where it hangs from the yaw connection point?

Is the gimbal CF or aluminum?
 

SleepyC

www.AirHeadMedia.com
Its the Hexacrafter G2 its carbon, and its perfectly ballenced. I has a huge motor on Yaw and nice fat motors on pitch and roll. Andrew can tell you more but there is no reason it should not work. I am going to test the CP on my Cinestar style 3 axis as well... we will see.
 

SleepyC

www.AirHeadMedia.com
Also we have tried 3S and 4S and are about to try 5S (4-5 with the additional power conditioning board)
 

This is a great example on how misinformation usually spreads. Bear with me here, and I'll give you an insight into the dynamics of user support, forum boards and what's it like dealing with components outside of your control.

In the case of SleepyC, as far as I know from talking with Andrew, the problem appears with one particular motor (8108 I think) with heavier cameras. 6208 motor works, as does a NEX with the 8108. So there's one combo giving troubles (GH4 with 8108). So that's problem #1.

Then, in the case of Scott, the setup is totally different in terms of motors, camera and gimbal; even the problem is different! his yaw won't even tune (the CP detects bad motion on the yaw and drops into 2 axis mode). He tried different CP and different IMU, and the problem persists, meaning it's 99% something with the mechanics or motor and it's just picked up by the CP (as it should!). We have extremely detailed logs (as you all know) and we can see the CP pushing power up on the axis trying to get some kind of clean movement but that doesn't happen. This analysis is extremely precise, up to us telling users they have a cold solder joint and such. So that's problem #2.

Next, someone will chime in with a Cinestar gimbal with rotating landing legs, which mechanically compromise the gimbal (ever wondered why DJI never went with that, despite the added complexity of retracts?) and again "CP yaw doesn't work!". Problem #3.

Then, someone else will have a too soft of a damping setup. He'd complain about yaw too (and he should! because when rotating the gimbal, the same exact force is exerted back on the dampers - it's kindergarten physics; too soft of a damping system, and the yaw doesn't have anything to work against, and the dampers will just deform instead of the gimbal creating a clean motion).
Problem #4.

Then, some guy up in Canada buys the CP for his $129 GoPro gimbal, which hangs the CP on the roll arm. Being that it's a GoPro gimbal, it's super light compared to the mass of the electronics and the wires (which are completely negligible in something the size of a MoVI). He has a battery coming down from the top and it has a quite rigid cable. Heck, even the stiffness of the USB cable interferes with the yaw tuning. So the setup is really bad and doesn't allow the yaw to operate freely (and even if it did, heck it's the cheapest design and materials you can get). Then he comes and complains about his yaw problems. CP doesn't work well on yaw! Problem #5.

Another guy then uses a great, well sorted gimbal. It's even handheld so there's no dampers to mess up anything. However, he doesn't tie down his gimbal properly for the autotuning. It seems to be held fine, but during autotune the gimbal shifts and slides a bit in place. How bad can it be, right? Well, it completely messes up the autotune process (which exercises the mechanical structure of the gimbal, and for that it needs the gimbal clamped in place). The pitch has the mass of the rest of the gimbal to lean against, and the roll at least as the yaw (and battery) to lean against, but the yaw is completely free to wiggle around. Yaw tunes bad, and the CP YAW DOESN'T WORK! Problem #6.

There you have it, SIX people with yaw problems! They'll all convene here and say "CP YAW DOESN'T WORK". Soon enough the trolls from RCG pick that up and repeat the sentiment that CP yaw doesn't work. And if we say we can maybe improve on some of this stuff in software, it'll be used as an automatic admission of guilt that the problem is in the CP.

So six completely unrelated problems, with the only common denominator being the CP - although it would be ridiculous to claim the yaw doesn't work on the CP, would it (being that, well, 99% of CP users have three axis systems). But it would still reduce the discussion into CP YAW DOESN'T WORK.

In reality, there's only one problem worth investigating here - and that's the first problem with the 8108 motor. The others are completely outside the controller's domain. We can't do much about it. Yes, you can take an Alexmos and tune it badly enough so it works in all cases. It'll be all over the place, and you wouldn't want that from us (or else you wouldn't have bought our three times more expensive hardware).

Before you dismiss the role of mechanical setup, consider that between the first revision of the F1 and the current third revision (it's completely different than the photos we published right now), the autotune gain numbers went up by 3x, as did the usable focal length (!!!). The only changes were mechanical hard parts. Same motors, same controller (running 1330 software you all use) between all versions. The only change is the mechanical design of the gimbal - and there's even more room for improvement on that.
 

jfro

Aerial Fun
Samur, you obviously have lots of configurations your dealing with. I'm not the least bit surprised there are issues with so many different gimbals.

However, in the Case of SleepyC & Motopreserve, both have gimbals from your partners. Both are well above the average flyer with solid rigs.

Moto may have some more answers has he possibly found some binding in the yaw setup. Maybe that will help or even solve his problem. SleepyC, from what he said 2 posts ago, has tried different motors and batteries. I've heard that Hexacrafter has spent a significant amount of time on their gimbals and the CP.

Then we get to my setup. Gh3/gh4 on a DYS 5D gimbal with 6208 motors which works pretty good.

Then using the YAW setup, with a 22mm CF tube fitted inside the DYS 25mm Tube, I then hang my hand cut DIY gimbal which is big enough for a 5D with iPower 5208 motors on roll and pitch, and it works gives me good footage flying.

Last weekend, I experimented with my CP and an old NEX5 sized gimbal and although it auto tuned, it vibrated like crazy in the air. This off the same x8 I fly my gh3/gh4 CP DYS gimbal on. I twice modified part of the gimbal frame to strengthen it and then gave up. I would say that gimbal isn't going to work.

While I sympathize with your issues dealing with issues world wide, SleepC and Motoperserve's situation is kinda of crazy. They both have gimbals from your early partners and they are well made from what people tell me. I believe SleepyC has been working on his for a month or less, but Motoperserve has months and multiple hours of trying to figure it out. I'm guessing Andrew at Hexacrafter has been working even longer on it.

Just curious, but why are they having issues that haven't been figured out?
 

We're working with Andrew, which is why I said it's a matter we're looking into. I'm suspecting some motor geometry issue with that motor there that's unrelated to Andrew's design.

We're not working with Motopreserve's gimbal manufacturer directly - although in his case, the problem seems to be isolated just to his gimbal as we've other customers with the same gimbal and no such problems. Binding is going to kill the operation of any gimbal, on any axis.

There are so many factors at play here it's incredibly difficult to pinpoint any single culprit. We've had an especially nasty troubleshooting session spanning weeks where we went all the way from balancing, to structure stiffening, to changing motors, to drastically changing software, to hacking together a modified IMU hardware (!!!) just to understand why a particular gimbal behaves as it does.

And yea, the controller sees stuff the user doesn't. Elasticity, excitation frequencies, notches in the motor, I can count on and on, but what SEEMS like a good gimbal sometimes isn't so, which makes our life that much more complicated.

By the way, everything is much easier with handheld setups. It's the aerial stuff that's difficult. And did we mention vibrations coming from the helicopter yet and what they do to the gimbal?
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
Soon enough the trolls from RCG pick that up and repeat the sentiment that CP yaw doesn't work.

thanks for the update Samur, I know @SleepyC and @Motopreserve have a lot of time invested in their gimbals so let's hope they have great results to show for it very soon. I've got a CP now as well and I'll be fashioning my own GoPro-to-NEX sized 2-axis gimbal with a 3-axis to come if all goes well. I must be crazy to embark on another round of gimbal development after all the time I've wasted but why not, the potential to get great results with the CP is too enticing to pass up!

Good luck, I hope it's all smooth sailing soon for you guys.
Bart
 

Hexacrafter

Manufacturer
Forum,
Sorry to say I have not been following the forums lately.....out with Medical issues....I just hopped on and saw this thread..so...
I also need to help clarify where things are at so misinformation does not spread.
Our Experiences with the CP and our NEX gimbal are very promising. A few small issues that have been reported to Phobotic and they are looking into them. They are:
1. When using RC to tilt (pitch) the camera down beyond 45 degrees, the roll & yaw motors begin to buzz slightly.
2. When using RC control (Spektrum TX & RX), the controlled axis will reverse creep very slightly at the end of the movement.
From what little I know of others experiences, these seem to be fairly common, but have no actual figures to back this up.
With our GH4 gimbal we are experiencing a issue with the Yaw axis and the autotune. The yaw autotunes fine, but the power is tuned too low and the axis will go into recovery with any slight movement. We have done exhaustive testing and reported our findings to Phobotic. Our tests indicate that when the gimbal loaded mass (batteries & camera) exceed a certain weight that the autotune does not tune the power high enough to maintain the required control over the yaw axis and forces the gimbal into recovery. We have experimented by adding progressively more weight and find that the autotune provides insufficient power starting right at a GH4 with a very small lens. Any weight beyond this, the autotune is underpowered. The power can be increased and a autotune of gains performed, and the gimbal seems to hold without going into recovery..... But the yaw motors buzz....
There are some many variables to the CP GUI that we honestly do not have a full understanding of how to further manually tune out the motor buzz, but all of this information has been provided to Phobotic for review. Additionally, they have the HexaCrafter gimbal at their shop so they should be able to do further testing and reproduce our problem and adjust the autotune to resolve the problem.
It should be noted that the NEX and GH4 gimbal are identical in frame and motors. The only difference is the "cage" that holds the camera and the intended camera (weight) to be used.
I hope this clarifies our issues.
We are very hopeful that Phobotic can correct the firmware to properly integrate with our gimbals.
The V2 gimbals are not being offered for sale until we confirm these problems are resolved. They do not even appear on our website.
Our plan has always been to release to the public with the MRF review once all gremlins are gone.

Thanks
 

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