British MR fliers UNITE

Droider

Drone Enthusiast
Just had long conversation with the CAA.

Long and short of it.. The really want some one to represent independent companies / pilots in the sUAV class. I have asked for access to their list of companies with aerial permissions. They said they dont see a problem in making this public as they do with all other forms of operators. They are getting back to me.

Seems the ball is rolling

Dave
 

Bowley

Member
What jumped out at me was that they (CAA) seem to have seen sense in terms of types and classifications.

I have it that this is an incorrect assumption. The reference to 'type' is apparently an error in CAP722 and the BNUC is still actually system specific.
 

ZAxis

Member
I have it that this is an incorrect assumption. The reference to 'type' is apparently an error in CAP722 and the BNUC is still actually system specific.

My reading of it al is that the CAA are open to a 'type' classification but that EuroUSC have decided that 'their' qualification is system specific. So it is the BNUC-S certificate and EuroUSC who have to change not the CAA.
My conversation with higher ups at EuroUSC did seem to bring out that they believe different FCs and rotor configurations need different skills and these need to be tested. I'm sure we all disagree with this. Don't forget the BNUC-S (trade mark) is from a commercial organisation who will always be looking for profit.
Its a fact that all multirotors behave in a similar fashion and that it is simple for a pilot to switch from one configuration to another with relative ease. Its like jumping out of a basic Land Rover and into a Lambourgini, you can still immediately drive off and not have to go through another certification procedure to do so.
I am sure we can convince the CAA of this and bring about an immediate simplification of the whole process. I reckon any multirotor under 7kg would be a fundamental class with another covering 7-20kg as an extension to cover the increased risk factors.

andy
 

swisser

Member
The trouble is I think that they are looking for some validation for the aircraft itself. EuroUSC say (and I've no reason to disbelieve them) that one of the CAA's biggest concerns is "fly aways". Hence they are keen to see a demonstration of the RTH feature of the flight controller in action. This obviously is aircraft specific or at least flight controller specific. I suppose they could say "You're using a DJI WKM controller, we've seen loads of those do RTH successfully, that's fine". There are other aspects of the aircraft that they want to see though.
 

ZAxis

Member
The CAA accept the BNUC-S as proof of pilot competence and their ability to fly to their own operations manual. It is not a validation of the aircraft. There are no airworthiness requirements for sub 20kg UAVs. EuroUSC will fail a candidate for bad piloting but not for a bad aircraft if it performs as detailed in the operations manual. This is very similar to ISO9000 certification, do what you say you do and you get the certificate.
I do agree that the CAA have valid concerns over flyaways but a list of proven flight controllers should take care of that, as you say.
I am sure the CAA will listen if we all push for 'type' certification and can back it with good, solid reasoning.

andy
 

AndySV1K

Member
Got to go type approval. Individual machine approval would be crazy, it could open us all up to endless charges for having machines re-tested each time they are modified.

Would changing the motor type mean they no longer conform? or updating the gimbal, or prop size etc. it could get silly, where as with a type approval, you would simply fit into one category or another and as long as you operating professionally and in accordance with the ways you state you will in your manual, then things should be fairly straight forward.

Andy.
 

swisser

Member
I concur that it's about "what it says in your ops manual" and not about airworthiness requirements. But the ops manual is aircraft specific so it's a bit of a catch 22, or at least that's how EuroUSC can choose for it to be. As you say, the CAA might view it differently if a suitable case is presented to them - after all in the manned aircraft world once you can operate (say) a non-complex single engine piston aeroplane you can operated them all. So if you can operate a 6 rotor brushless motor UAV then you ought to be able to operate all similar craft. You'd hope they might include quads and octos as well.
 

Bowley

Member
The specificity of it in actuality would have a very negative impact on commercial users both in terms of reluctance to develop equipment and hence service provided and also in financial terms where it could very realistically cost more to re-certify on new equipment than the cost of the equipment or modifications themselves. Our field is extremely dynamic right now with new and better eqpt being developed and available.
If this is the case the cost for subsequent certification should be more realistic and also I would like to see a broader range of examiners, geographically speaking, for obvious reasons in my own case!
 

Gunter

Draganflyer X4
When I changed from the Draganflyer to my hexa, I had to get a new certificate from the CAA, as well as pay for the new license (circa £100 ish)

It is a pain, so I think I'll stick with the hexa for now!

Gunter.
 


ZAxis

Member
I concur that it's about "what it says in your ops manual" and not about airworthiness requirements. But the ops manual is aircraft specific so it's a bit of a catch 22, or at least that's how EuroUSC can choose for it to be. As you say, the CAA might view it differently if a suitable case is presented to them - after all in the manned aircraft world once you can operate (say) a non-complex single engine piston aeroplane you can operated them all. So if you can operate a 6 rotor brushless motor UAV then you ought to be able to operate all similar craft. You'd hope they might include quads and octos as well.

I'd say that an operations manual does not need to be aircraft specific. Its all down to the way it is written. I see nothing wrong with sections that cover multiple variants for as long as it is written down. The operations manual would then not be for, say, a Droidworx hexacopter with a WKM FC but one for a 'Multirotor UAV'. It would include statements that highlight the differences from a generic configuration, e.g. number of motors, FC, weight, etc, and how the pilot adjusts operations accordingly. Risk assessments do not differ significantly over a wide range of weights and configurations, they are all potential bricks.

Thoughts from others ??

andy
 

Bowley

Member
I work with ROV's everything we do is iaw our operations manual and safety case, nowhere do we have one ops manual/safety case per type of vehicle, the idea seems absurd when transposed into my line of work. Same for our safety case, an ROV is an ROV, A MR UAS is an MR UAS.
Like manned aircraft pilots, our certification should prove us able and empower us to take a level of responsibility to make decisions and be able to tell the difference from one FC to the next and be able to get our heads round more than 1 specific system.
As long as Ops manual states all operation of a particular FC to be carried out iaw manufacturers manual (see appendix xx) I dont see why we should include the finer details of each operating system, this would just be a copy and paste exercise anyway.
 

Droider

Drone Enthusiast
We will be contacting EuroUSC on Monday inviting them up to face the questions we all have. Wether they come will be another matter. As for the CAA, I think there is enough interest being generated here to eventually get the MRAUK set up so we all have a channeled voice with the CAA. At the moment I cant even get a list of companies certified so how they expect licensed operators to adopt their whistleblowing policy is a mystery. They have lists of every other licensed aviator on their website and encourage the reporting of illegal flying but no aerial permissions list..

Anyway more to discuss in two weeks time

Dave
 

Droider

Drone Enthusiast
Is anyone on here coming to the meeting on the 15th/16th September. Would be a great place to discuss this in anger and get the ball rolling

Dave
 

swisser

Member
I think you might have to go to EuroUSC rather than expecting them to come to you. After all, Andre has gone to the trouble of setting it all up and has thus put himself in an enviable position (though of course there is nothing stopping someone else doing the same), so it's his game to lose really. He would also likely be a source of people with aerial permission since a good proportion would have been issued through their BNUC program.

Personally I think drawing up a list of concerns and discussing them online is likely to be more productive than holding out for the 15/16 meeting because you're unlikely to get all the voices at one meeting, plus it'll possibly just dissolve in to some people moaning about the cost of the BNUC-S or how you can just ignore the law etc. etc. I could set up a private forum/website for a moderated discussion of the issues at hand and we could ask Andre if he would be willing to mailshot his contact list inviting them to check it out. It would be a way of getting more of a critical mass to get the ball rolling. He told me once that someone (a commercial supplier) was setting one up, but it doesn't seem to have happened.
 

Droider

Drone Enthusiast
I think you might have to go to EuroUSC rather than expecting them to come to you. After all, Andre has gone to the trouble of setting it all up and has thus put himself in an enviable position (though of course there is nothing stopping someone else doing the same), so it's his game to lose really. He would also likely be a source of people with aerial permission since a good proportion would have been issued through their BNUC program.

Personally I think drawing up a list of concerns and discussing them online is likely to be more productive than holding out for the 15/16 meeting because you're unlikely to get all the voices at one meeting, plus it'll possibly just dissolve in to some people moaning about the cost of the BNUC-S or how you can just ignore the law etc. etc. I could set up a private forum/website for a moderated discussion of the issues at hand and we could ask Andre if he would be willing to mailshot his contact list inviting them to check it out. It would be a way of getting more of a critical mass to get the ball rolling. He told me once that someone (a commercial supplier) was setting one up, but it doesn't seem to have happened.


Perfect! I am all for this but do not have the technical knowledge to set up a forum. I have a list of companies I have found by trawling the internet I was going to call this week to see if they are interested in airing their views.

I know inviting EuroUSE would have been a long shot but it was to make a point that there is a growing number of BNUC qualified pilots that are wanting clarification on certain issues. All I get is smoke and mirrors when I ask questions and thats if I even get a reply. The CAA just refer me back to EU and CAP722.

Dave
 

plingboot

Member
Just dredging this one up again.

Did my BNUC-s ground course last week and passed, so as far as my plans are going, things are moving in the right direction.

There's a lot of talk on forums about the CAA and BNUC-s programme and an equal amount of supposition.
Having experienced the course and having attempted to grill Andre at every opportunity about anything which sprung to mind or came up as a result of group discussion, i have to say that i found it a first rate experience.

EuroUSC will readily admit that the current process might be far from perfect, but i think it's a magnitude better than winging it outside the law and as there's nothing else it's the way to go.

I didn't go there completely green, but in a day and a half i picked up an awful lot of new, enlightening information and guidance on ways to work, so my operation, however small is efficient and safe.

The big - main - thing to take away from the experience is a push towards safe operation.

It does look like an association of BNUC-s certified 'pilots' will be the way forward, but 'someone' is going to need to put in a huge amount of effort building and maintaining a forum and co-ordinating it all - and i don't think the volume of work involved makes this a viable proposition for someone to do 'in the evening'.

Which ever way 'we' go we all need to be pulling in the same direction.

I also think we need to have some way of involving manufacturers.

A cynical view could be that they (manufacturers) are just selling the gear without actually looking at the legislation around professional AP and getting involved. A case in point, i asked DJI for more specifications on the S800, they were unable to tell me anything more than maximum wind speed and maximum weight. No information on max humidity or how performance and MTOM change at different altitudes. So if i get a job in the alps, i'm left guessing.

I also asked for their recommended, rigorous and repeatable system for testing an S800 after a firmware upgrade - the answer was "swap the payload for a similar weight and fly low until you're confident." - which isn't going to cut it quite frankly. I'm not pulling out DJI for a moan here, merely using them as an example as it's their products i'm using. But i'd guess i'd have a similar response from mikrokopter or hoverfly.

Maybe manufacturers simply haven't considered this issue, but it will become more and more important that they do.

Much of this is, i believe an issue related to hobby kit becoming professional tools. We've celebrated the fact that at 'hobby' money we have access to rigs which can perform as well as £20k turnkey solutions, but as soon as you understand the implications of taking those hobby rigs into the professional arena, those £20k price tags begin to make sense. It's nothing to do with similar functionality, it's training, back-up, testing and safety which bump up the cost.

If manufacturers sign up to some kind of testing programme - with an entity like EuroUSC - this should help with issues like updating firmware - under current guidance that represents a fundamental change to the equipment used and approved by EuroUSC during the flight test.

I think what i'm trying to say is that we're becoming a small industry and we will need a collective (on-line) voice which isn't kicking against the current system all the time, but working with it to improve and change things in a positive way.
 
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plingboot

Member
yes, but didn't want to mention other forums on here - seemed rude.

is sub20 the place to be for bnuc-s qualified operators then?
 

Bowley

Member
you dont have to have a BNUC-S but it is geared towards the commercial sector. At first glance it seems to be just what we have looking for with the added bonus that it covers all types of SUA, not just MR's
 

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