Understanding Lithium Polymer batteries

so after reading this I realized that I have a few micro heli batteries laying around (that I gathered up). I tested them and they all read 3.7. So that's the stable voltage?

I think I'll pick up a few fireproof battery bags to store and charge in. Do you use them Bartman?
 
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Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
so after reading this I realized that I have a few micro heli batteries laying around (that I gathered up). I tested them and they all read 3.7. So that's the stable voltage?

I think I'll pick up a few fireproof battery bags to store and charge in. Do you use them Bartman?

I usually charge batteries on the cement floor of my garage or basement and try to plan ahead in case of a fire. I unlock the garage so I can open it from the outside if a pack ignites which keeps me from having to walk through a smoke filled garage to get the door open. Little stuff like that might save my butt one day.

I've also considered a small gang box, like what contractors use on job sites for their tools. A smaller one, made out of heavy steel might be a good option for an indoor charging station so the top could be closed if a cell caught fire. Something like this

http://www.grizzly.com/products/T10031

or this

http://www.amazon.com/Williams-5095...230508&sr=1-6&keywords=job+box#productDetails

It could be wired through the side so if there's a fire you could just close the top and disconnect the plug from it. Hang a smoke alarm inside the box and it might be safe enough to charge indoors. Maybe some foam weatherstripping tape along the joint to seal it off better when it's closed.

another one of my many musings.
 
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jbrumberg

Member
You just gave me an idea for how to use an old, little, unused woodstove that I have laying around doing nothing but rusting. Thank you. And I have a question- Do these lipo's "self-oxynate" when they catch fire? I read that somewhere and I can not find that source again.
 

Ya, I was thinking of using an outdoor firepit (it's a sphere) made of concrete, so that would totally contain any battery that decided to misbehave. I also have several fiberglass blankets that I use when I'm welding in my little shop that I can probably put to use as safety measures. Does anyone use the charging bags available for cheap? Seems a no-brainer to use one of those at the minimum.
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
Ya, I was thinking of using an outdoor firepit (it's a sphere) made of concrete, so that would totally contain any battery that decided to misbehave. I also have several fiberglass blankets that I use when I'm welding in my little shop that I can probably put to use as safety measures. Does anyone use the charging bags available for cheap? Seems a no-brainer to use one of those at the minimum.

i don't think they offer as much protection as you'd need. maybe at first they'll buy you some time but I think I read somewhere that they burn through eventually. don't throw out those rusty grilling thongs either, they make a good tool to grab a burning battery.

i think the batteries produce Hydrogen when they start to overheat and burn, i don't know about oxygen, maybe?
 

gotcha, so the general rule is to babysit a charge and not let it go unattended. So another noooob question… so how long does it take to charge a 5000mah battery? (meaning how long do you have to babysit it?)

Thanks for all this help Bartman, I so appreciate it.
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
a 1C charge rate means you're replacing the full Capacity of the pack in one hour but we don't run our packs to zero remaining capacity, it's more like 25% remaining. so to replace 75% of the pack's capacity at a 1C rate means we're looking at a charge cycle of about 45 minutes.

a 5000 mah pack needs a 5A current to charge at 1S, 10A for 2S, etc, etc, etc, since the 5000 is its Capacity (a 1C charge rate means 1 times its Capacity).

those big chargers charge at high rates only with a pack or two (maybe three) attached. They won't (some might but most won't) charge at high rates when you have six packs attached. Six 5000 mah packs is a combined 30,000 mah equivalent pack for the charger to charge. It would need 300 A to charge at a 1C rate.

My iCharger i306B maxes out at 30A so I can parallel charge a maximum of six 5000mah packs at a rate of 1C. If I were to hook up six 8000 mah packs I'd still only have that 30A max charge current so my rate would be much lower resulting in a longer charge time.
 

So, when a battery is charged at 4.2 volts per cell, does that mean its at full capacity, or 100% of its mah rating? I guess I'm confused about how to know how much mah was drained during use. This makes my brain hurt. Is this why it's just easier to make sure they don't drop below 3.3/cell? The mah route would mean too much math in figuring what every electrical element on the craft is drawing. Is that a correct assumption?


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gomotomoto,

At 4.2 volts per cell for a new LiPo the battery is considered charged to full capacity. At 3.7 volts per cell, most of the available capacity has been used up... and electrical loads don't function correctly below a critical low volt threshold.
Two examples:
When you pick up a new Duracell 1.5 volt battery and check the voltage with a multimeter you will see that it is reading around 1.6 volts when there is no electrical load connected.
When you pick up a fully charged 3.7 volt LiPo battery and check the voltage with a multimeter you will see that it is reading 4.2 volts when there is no electrical load connected.
So you toss the Duracell battery when it gets slightly lower than 1.5 volts etc.

The most accurate method for measuring battery capacity would be to measure the battery Power but that also requires measurement of current since Power(watts) = Volts * Amps.
Problem with that concept is that current measurement depletes the battery more rapidly which is self-defeating. (some new technology helps to minimize this drawback)

So the remaining practical but less accurate method is to simply measure the remaining voltage, knowing that as you approach the 3.7 volt level most of the capacity has already been depleted.
Keep in mind as the battery ages and the chemistry loses efficiency after many cycles, the previous full capacity has been reduced such that the total useful battery time for a fixed load is also reduced.
Hope that helps.
 
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Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
and to add to Peter's explanation, when you build your first helicopter and when you are suddenly the test pilot responsible for a safe operation, work your way up to what may be the max flight time of your craft. Plan short flights with fully charged batteries and keep track of how much capacity is being used in a fixed short amount of time. Are you guessing that the packs will last 7 minutes maybe? Then start with 3 minute flight and see how much MAH is being put back into the pack during a charge cycle. If it's only 50% of the rated MAH then try a four minute flight. See how much MAH goes back into the pack. Work your way up to a flight that leaves you with about 20% remaining and that should be about the maximum flight time for a given heli/weight/temperature. high temps/humidity will shorten flight times by a significant percentage so be ready to make that adjustment to your flight times when the temps start going over 90 F.

Bart
 

So, when a battery is charged at 4.2 volts per cell, does that mean its at full capacity, or 100% of its mah rating? I guess I'm confused about how to know how much mah was drained during use. This makes my brain hurt. Is this why it's just easier to make sure they don't drop below 3.3/cell? The mah route would mean too much math in figuring what every electrical element on the craft is drawing. Is that a correct assumption?


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Here is some more useful info: This is one method used to figure out how long you can safely fly. I have not read this whole thread so might be repeating other info. sorry.

When you charge your battery after a flight, be sure to read how many Mah where put back into your pack after charging, while the pack is still plugged into your charger. Also keep track of how long your flight was. I try to fly to about 70-80% of my pack capacity and do my best to never go beyond that.

Let's say you flew 10 minutes on a 5000 mah pack. It does not matter what the cell count is. Then you charged the battery. After the charge to full (4.2v per cell) you see that you put 3500mah back into your 5000 mah pack. You now know you used 70% of your packs capacity. This would tell me that you can comfortably fly your multirotor 10 minutes under the same configuration (without adding weight or flying much faster). Now you can set the timer on your radio of 9:00 minutes to give you a 1:00 minute warning to land. The Mah is probably less confusing than the volts because then you have volts under load or not under load. Now, there is a caveat in that packs where out over time and may not hold the full 5000mah, so this is something to keep an eye on.
 




RotoTwit

Member
If possible, someone should address the issue of 'quality' as in, is a cheap/inexpensive battery (same capacity/cells/etc) as good or lasting as a higher priced or 'name brand' battery. This is a concern of every hobbyist of all genres, but it can be more important here, or 'crash and burn' is more than a cute fad phrase !!

Just something I am sure will come up if not already (did not read all 3 pages of responses!).
 



So, what's a good alternative discharge method that won't discharge the batteries too quickly?


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A series of vehicle signal lights......
these are current limiting since the resistance of the light filaments increases due to the heat.
This was the way we did it years ago with NiCds.
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
that's right Scott, if you go to the auto parts store and buy some 12V lamps for turn signals or stop lights you can build a circuit that will use the lamps to discharge the packs. test by adding one lamp at a time until you have a rate of discharge that is good for your packs.

i'm not sure but maybe 1/2S would work well for a healthy gradual discharge rate?
 

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