So it begins....

helloman1976

Ziptie Relocation Expert
Al Quaeda created by the CIA...FACT! Before the CIA created that name they used to be called the "Mujahideen"...the ones supplied with american guns/missles to fight the russian occupation of Afghan! Also the same terrorists (to coin thier phrase) were given brand new shiny weapons (again by the USA) in the recent middle east uprisings. Please don't take my word for it...go search out yourself & learn some truths about government & thier corporate sponsors who make vast sums of money from funding both sides of any war!!!!

Bin liner (al quaeda leader) was in a Saudi hospital with renal problems during the twin towers, 3 men made up al quaeda...those 3 men from acave in Afghan (if you believe the official story) managed to fly multi engined jets (when they couldnt even fly cessna 150's & 172's), beat the most advanced defence system in the world & hit 3 targets....they even found a undamaged passport from one of them, considering everythign from the towers was turned to dust!
Of those terrorists that supposedly died in the plane crashes...why have 7 of them been in the press & on TV since ;)

All that glistens John....

Regards
Ross


You can thank that idiot Ronald Reagan for Al Qaeda and arming the "rebels" of Afghanistan against Russia. They were called The Mujahideen before that, that is fact. Ronald Reagan met with the leaders of The Mujahideen and is quoted as saying, "These gentlemen are the moral equivalents of America’s founding fathers.” — Ronald Reagan while introducing the Mujahideen leaders to media on the White house lawns (1985)"
 




ChrisViperM

Active Member
Hera is something interesting to read: (also the comments at the end)

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/17/150817060/drones-move-from-war-zones-to-the-home-front

What amuses me is the fact that in all these discussions is the "personal privacy" argument is used over and over again. Cameras on every street coner , fingerprints in every passport, Echolon, Hi-Res sattelites, millions of registration forms, seemless surveillance of your financial transactions, collecting all your mobile phone data....the list of activities to neglet anyones privacy (by the governments all over the world) is just endless....and all of the sudden all these politicians are concerned about privacy rights...??? At present there are officially 315.281.701 people living in America (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html) and to some estimations I read ther will be 30.000 drones (which ones ???...Hobby, Military, Law Enforcment....or all together ? ) in the sky by 2015. How big (or how little) is the chance that anyone of these
315.281.701 Americans will see a drone in persona...??? If you now assume that the stuff we fly for fun or for business is only a small fraction of the 30.000 drones, how big is the chance that some neighbors hot wife is getting filmed while getting oiled up by the pool boy ??? Apart from that, a look at Youtube, Twitter, Facebook and similar gives me the impression that privacy is not really a concern for most of the population...so what's the reason behind the fuss they are making lately about "drones" ???
Has it got do do with the fact that America is slowly pulling out of war zones all over the world (I defenitely would with that kind of overdraft in my bank account: http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ ) and the military industry is pushing into the "privat sector" and doesn't want to "share" the market with punks like us....? I could not remember any serious incidents in connection with multirotors which would justify the media hype at the moment....unless there are serious interests behind, and if there are serious interest behind, how do you get the public opinion about "concerns of privacy rights" (or any opinion) on your side:



Chris
 
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Bowley

Member
Thats a good point you make Chris, the overlap between the 'UAV' Industry and the Aeromodelling Industry is getting bigger. You have the likes of Boeing and Aerosonde turning out systems at Aerospace prices, and people making systems for peanuts out of off the shelf hobby parts. the common man now has the capability well within his reach and financial means to manufacture and operate a UAV capable of flying fully autonomous sorties. It wouldn't surprise me if much of the future legislation stems from corporate lobbying from the big guys, whose target market is Mil and Govt agencies, not 'Reach for the Sky' aerial photography inc et al.
Perhaps it will end up like the Pharmaceutical Vs Natural remedy and supplements industries, where big drug companies lobby Govt to legislate the later out of existence...(Codex Alimentarius)
 

HPL

Member
You cannot trespass and you cannot endanger my safety to take a picture. You cannot take pictures of me engaging in sex acts or intimate acts without my express permission. You cannot sell or reproduce or copy right images of me for profit without my express permission.

With FPV you are flying your camera and that falls under several laws already in existence. You cannot transmit video at the power we do without a HAM operators license so by flying and doing this you are already in violation of the law without a license. while broadcasting video transmission without a HAM operator license you are breaking the law. The key here is, fly safe...be responsible, don't get noticed... :)

I'm not so sure about the first bolded statement. If you are in a public place where you don't have any reasonable expectation of privacy, I'm pretty sure that I can photograph you and sell the image to any publication I wish no matter in what activity you were engaged. Perhaps I couldn't sell it to an ad agency (although I bet that it's not so much a criminal offense as a civil issue where you could sue for compensation).

Do you know what level of HAM license one would need to transmit video images for say 0.5 mi.? It looks tome like obtaining the "technician" level might not be too onerous.
 

Macsgrafs

Active Member
Do you know what level of HAM license one would need to transmit video images for say 0.5 mi.? It looks tome like obtaining the "technician" level might not be too onerous.

Yes the technician license will be fine for quite a few miles.
 

helloman1976

Ziptie Relocation Expert
I'm not so sure about the first bolded statement. If you are in a public place where you don't have any reasonable expectation of privacy, I'm pretty sure that I can photograph you and sell the image to any publication I wish no matter in what activity you were engaged. Perhaps I couldn't sell it to an ad agency (although I bet that it's not so much a criminal offense as a civil issue where you could sue for compensation).

Do you know what level of HAM license one would need to transmit video images for say 0.5 mi.? It looks tome like obtaining the "technician" level might not be too onerous.

Check local and state laws and the FCC, they should be able to tell you the mW you are "allowed" to transmit at without a licence. Generally those numbers are absurd, like 10mW for example. Some of the frequencies are prohibited as well, I believe 1.3Ghz in the USA is not permitted but don't quote me on that. I personally pay ZERO attention to any of it and fly with a 900mhz 1.5W transmitter :) I have video of me flying around cops...they don't care and have no idea what the law is regarding these things. Just be safe and smart and you'll be fine.
 

ChrisViperM

Active Member
Check local and state laws and the FCC, they should be able to tell you the mW you are "allowed" to transmit at without a licence. Generally those numbers are absurd, like 10mW for example. Some of the frequencies are prohibited as well, I believe 1.3Ghz in the USA is not permitted but don't quote me on that. I personally pay ZERO attention to any of it and fly with a 900mhz 1.5W transmitter :) I have video of me flying around cops...they don't care and have no idea what the law is regarding these things. Just be safe and smart and you'll be fine.


Even if the cops care, how would they be able to measure ....????


Chris
 

helloman1976

Ziptie Relocation Expert
Even if the cops care, how would they be able to measure ....????


Chris


I guess it'd be like window tint or maybe decibels of your radio at 50 feet, both enforceable laws even if truly absurd. If "drones" really become and issue then cops will have the tools and resources to measure it I'm assuming. If this starts becoming a "national security issue" then watch out, they'll spend billions to save thousands :)
 

I understand people wanting to protect their privacy. But this is getting ridiculous.

Little Timmy with his DJI Phantom doesn't belong in Guantanamo.
 

HPL

Member
Just saw an interview on FOX News with one of our Texas state reps regarding a bill that he is working on for the state house that is pretty far reaching banning the use of "drones" to photograph or video record private property without the property owner's permission. He is stressing that it is NOT intended to prevent "hobbyists" from using the technology over public parks or on private property with permission and that violations would be misdemeanors. It also restricts governmental use of drones, while recognizing that they have legitimate uses in search and rescue, environmental studies, and so on, with less restrictions on use with permission on private property. He acknowledged that the bill will need some thought and input from the people in the private sector drone community also. I am going to get in touch with my state rep early next week to voice my concerns.
 

Just saw an interview on FOX News with one of our Texas state reps regarding a bill that he is working on for the state house that is pretty far reaching banning the use of "drones" to photograph or video record private property without the property owner's permission. He is stressing that it is NOT intended to prevent "hobbyists" from using the technology over public parks or on private property with permission and that violations would be misdemeanors. It also restricts governmental use of drones, while recognizing that they have legitimate uses in search and rescue, environmental studies, and so on, with less restrictions on use with permission on private property. He acknowledged that the bill will need some thought and input from the people in the private sector drone community also. I am going to get in touch with my state rep early next week to voice my concerns.

It seems like all the politicians are in a big hurry to ban things that they don't understand. I guess it gets them publicity.
 



helloman1976

Ziptie Relocation Expert
so suddenly my Ladybird Quadropter becomes a threat to the state?

Only if you happen to work in the mining industry and have a grudge to settle. Of course, nobody ever goes berserk. There's a fine line between toy and weapon here and there's some privacy concerns as well that are legitimate but the "hobby" should not be taken away. Think of all the dangerous things out there, you can't make them all illegal but you can put good people to work for you that'll help make things safe. Give us a license, give us an avenue to report those who are flying unsafe and enforce it and We The People will be your patrol. :D My 2 cents...
 

hairball

Member
This thread is very interesting and brings up several issues that I would like to see cleared up. I am not implying that I am here to clear anything up. On the contrary, I will ask many questions and answer few.

I have tried to determine what if any height restriction there is for flying over property as it relates to privacy or trespass. So far I have not found any laws that define it or cases for USA or NY state as it applies to drones, UAVs, remote control toys, flying thingamajigs, or whatever we call them. The closest thing was some case that was thrown out about an airplane over property. (I am sorry that I don’t recall where I found that) The conclusion was that there is no limit on fly overs, otherwise any crank could prevent commercial aircraft or any airplane from traversing your airspace. We can have no expectation of privacy in our backyards from above. If anyone knows of a law or a case that disagrees or proves this please do tell.

If the previous paragraph is true then we don’t own any airspace above our property. (unlike mineral and water rights which can extend below our property). From this assumption we could extrapolate that we could fly a drone up and over into our neighbors yard and occupy the air space there as long as we don’t touch their belongings or property. It could also be extrapolated that they would be free to throw a brick at said drone and destroy or damage it. Again I am interested in case law that supports or disproves this.

As far as peeping goes; if you are personally on someone’s property then the occupants can have an expectation of privacy from your peeping eyes or ears. Doing this makes you a peeping Tom and in the wrong. From a street or other public space not so much. The way I understand it is if you leave your curtains open then I can see or photograph you (sale or use of those photos is another issue). And in some cases you the occupant could be charged with indecent exposure or public lewdness.

I doubt the Oregon or Texas law will gain traction. It certainly needs our attention and action but I hope cooler minds will prevail.

Sorry my comments are not limited to FPV only. I am discussing all Remotely Piloted Craft. Heli, kite, balloon. Sorry if I am on the wrong thread. As far as FPV goes I believe that we are not permitted to fly fully FPV at all. My understanding is that we must keep the craft within sight at all times and have a spotter. Correct me if I am wrong.

Helloman1976, I am not aware of any law that prevents anyone from filming you having sex if you are exposing yourself to a public area, in your home or elsewhere. If you choose to do that outdoors or in view of a public space AND you and your partner are attractive enough then we will film away. ;) As far as not being able to profit from images of you; that is not true either. As Stacky mostly covered; we cannot sell an image of you for use as advertisement or misrepresent what the image says but it can be sold for artistic purposes or journalistic purposes (we can’t make an unproven claim. There was a case where men sitting on a stone wall were photographed and the caption said these unemployed men… One of them sued and won. Now it is still permissible to use the shot in an article about unemployment as long as there is no direct claim that those pictured are unemployed unless they are verified to be)

What is the Steve Tyler law?

I would very much like someone to pull up actual laws from a law website.

Helloman, so let’s assume that do have a HAM operators license. How does that change this discussion. (agreed if you don’t have one then a law is being violated) Let’s take that out of the debate because unlike these other issues that are mirky at best, radio use laws are clear and we can operate those devices legally, if we choose to.

I agree that we need to fly safe, responsible and don’t get noticed. This is good advice.

The Texas law as described here would be a real bummer. Go up a few feet and you will be filming someones property, unless you own several thousand acres.
 

Privacy or national security, these UAV's we fly are rapidly becoming popular and in some cases flown foolishly and sometimes by people who are asking for trouble and should know better. Take for example Team Blacksheep, (See YouTube) flying and filming in London around the Houses of Parliament, Big Ben, in and around crowded places near the river Thames. I loved the footage but the act was plain stupid and reckless if only for bringing it to the attention of our politicians. We in the UK currently, in my opinion, have THE most inept and knee jerky government that we have had in my lifetime (60 years) and I wouldn't be surprised if they were not hatching a plan right now to outlaw UAV's, so flying in provocative places like Westminster doesn't help.
 

HPL

Member
I have tried to determine what if any height restriction there is for flying over property as it relates to privacy or trespass.

As far as peeping goes; if you are personally on someone’s property then the occupants can have an expectation of privacy from your peeping eyes or ears. Doing this makes you a peeping Tom and in the wrong. (sale or use of those photos is another issue).

I doubt the Oregon or Texas law will gain traction. It certainly needs our attention and action but I hope cooler minds will prevail.


Helloman1976, I am not aware of any law that prevents anyone from filming you having sex if you are exposing yourself to a public area, in your home or elsewhere. If you choose to do that outdoors or in view of a public space AND you and your partner are attractive enough then we will film away. ;) As far as not being able to profit from images of you; that is not true either.

What is the Steve Tyler law?

I would very much like someone to pull up actual laws from a law website.

The Texas law as described here would be a real bummer. Go up a few feet and you will be filming someones property, unless you own several thousand acres.

Although not related to trespass or privacy laws, it is my understanding that the upper altitude limit for RC is 400' (although it sounds like some here violate that).

If you are physically on someone's property, not only might you be charged with peeping, but also trespass.

I'm pretty sure you are right about filming or photographing from public property and probably from private property if you have permission to be there.

I too would like to see some actual statutes cited.

The incidental capturing of images as per your last concern is one issue I intend to bring up with my state House of Rep. member (I live in Texas).
 

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