Flew my drone through a firework display

Av8Chuck

Member
chuck,

i'm trying to understand your position on these issues but i'm finding contradictions. it is never ok to fly multi-rotor helicopters above 400 ft. it is dumb to fly through fireworks. isn't it possible that a drone/fireworks collision could divert a shell into a crowd of people?

there was a thread started by someone that flew a drone high enough to look down at a professional fireworks display which must have put him at at least 500 ft above the ground and he had to be using FPV gear to keep the shot so centered. so now he's in a dangerous place for manned aircraft that might be documenting the show for the producers or might just be out joy riding watching the fireworks as that is their right.

you need to take one side or the other but i'm having a hard time trying to guess which side you're on.

bart


Seriously? First off who says you can't fly a MR above 400ft agl? You mean the 2007 Guidelines that a federal judge said didn't constitute a law and that the FAA didn't have the right to create? Secondly full size aircraft will be held at 1500ft agl. There are NOTAMS that inform the pilots of temporary altitude restrictions and a frequency to contact ATC for VFR flight following around the event.

I'm not suggesting that people should do this sort of thing but I'm tired of all the sanctimonious criticism. As a community we are contributing to the hysteria that is feeding the media.

The side that I choose is the side for common sense. Was this stupid? Yes. Was it dangerous? Not really.
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
Seriously? First off who says you can't fly a MR above 400ft agl? You mean the 2007 Guidelines that a federal judge said didn't constitute a law and that the FAA didn't have the right to create? Secondly full size aircraft will be held at 1500ft agl. There are NOTAMS that inform the pilots of temporary altitude restrictions and a frequency to contact ATC for VFR flight following around the event.

I'm not suggesting that people should do this sort of thing but I'm tired of all the sanctimonious criticism. As a community we are contributing to the hysteria that is feeding the media.

The side that I choose is the side for common sense. Was this stupid? Yes. Was it dangerous? Not really.

sorry Chuck but you're wrong. NOTAM's aren't issued for each and every fireworks display in the country. Flying around fireworks is not prohibited and 1500' is not a real number. 1000' about populated areas is one guideline and 500' above unpopulated areas is another. Fireworks over a body of water may or may not have a NOTAM issued and if they don't then flying in the vicinity of the display would't be prohibited.

So, in reality, the only thing sanctimonious is your criticism of the people calling foul on the MR pilots flying in, around, and above fireworks displays.

In all circumstances, unmanned aircraft are to give way to manned aircraft. A guy flying FPV in, around, and above fireworks displays can't maintain visual separation with aircraft that may be in the area. There is no wiggle room on this in any sensible person's head.

Practically speaking, flying in the middle of a display is probably safe where manned aircraft separation concerns are being raised. What a collision with a fireworks shell would do to a helicopter though, and if it's possible in a collision to redirect an unexploded shell towards the viewing public, that's another story.

Bart
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
........As a community we are contributing to the hysteria that is feeding the media. .............


FWIW, I think the concept of unmanned aircraft operating freely anywhere they please by people without any regard for other people's safety is a pretty universal and common sense idea to wrap one's head around. To that end, I'd be surprised if we're the only ones being referenced when the media is looking for stories to overdramaticize the drone thing.

and, FWIW, we have a right to be alarmed along with the general public as we are seeing a very profitable, fun, challenging, innovative, and rewarding opportunity pass through our fingers thanks to the people who have no regard for anyone but themselves.

How many responsible drone operators have made the news? I haven't. Anyone else?
 

Benjamin Kenobi

Easy? You call that easy?
Seriously? First off who says you can't fly a MR above 400ft agl? You mean the 2007 Guidelines that a federal judge said didn't constitute a law and that the FAA didn't have the right to create? Secondly full size aircraft will be held at 1500ft agl. There are NOTAMS that inform the pilots of temporary altitude restrictions and a frequency to contact ATC for VFR flight following around the event.

I'm not suggesting that people should do this sort of thing but I'm tired of all the sanctimonious criticism. As a community we are contributing to the hysteria that is feeding the media.

The side that I choose is the side for common sense. Was this stupid? Yes. Was it dangerous? Not really.

Really, in the USA full size aircraft don't fly below 1500ft agl? What about air ambulances and Police helicopters?

In the UK they can go as low as 500ft in normal flight.
 


Old Man

Active Member
In the U.S. one can fly a manned Heli below 500' on a clearance. Over water a manned aircraft can not fly lower than an altitude that would permit a safe landing in the event a power unit failed. Meaning if you're going fast enough and can z
 


15crewdawg

Member
Stupid? Absolutely.
The part where he is flying through the bursts isn't really the part that is dangerous (to people anyway) since there appears to be a large body of water and an exclusion zone.
If the Phantom had been hit it would have most likely disintegrated and fallen into the water.
But there is the small chance that it would be hit/damaged and he would have lost control of it. If this were the case, where would it end up? Probably outside the exclusion zone and possibly in someone's lap.
The more dangerous part is when he flies over the crowd.

I'm pretty sure the "criticism" has come from a common sense stand point. At least the ones I've read.
And just because there isn't a law or regulation, doesn't mean it's ok to do something. There are a lot of things that aren't illegal but are just stupid to do. And you see people doing them all the time.
Staying below 400 ft. is just a generally safe altitude across the board and keeps you from infringing on possibly controlled airspace.
The problem we face is that the people doing these stupid acts are posting their adventures for the world to see. That makes our whole community look bad. And we are seeing more and more every day.
If we don't speak up and say this is NOT acceptable behavior, then what will that lead to?
At least by "criticizing" we are putting the word out that we as a community do not condone the reckless (and stupid) use of these aircraft.
 

Old Man

Active Member
With over 2300 hours as a pilot of a military level UAV flown in actual mission environments I have never seen the lack of concern for manned aviation and the people on the ground I've seen in here. As a UAV operator we went to great lengths to avoid people in the event something happens. Then again, we could be tried in a world court if we managed to kill or injure someone on the ground when we crashed. And we did sometimes crash.


I'm also a full scale pilot and flight/ground instructor and can state with authority that any manned aircraft of any type has right of way priority over anything unmanned. They even have prepared avoidance maneuvers in the event a collision appears possible. Under VFR conditions opposing traffic is separated by 500' vertically. In IFR conditions that vertical separation increase to 1000' with 1 to 5 miles horizontal depending on the location.

on 7/3 a flight warning had to be issued at the Birmingham Alabama airport because of some fool that was flying his MR at 3600' AGL inside the ATA. Hysteria? Perhaps but that term will change the second an MR operator kills someone in the air or on the ground. At the moment the only thing that surprises me is that such has not happened yet.
 
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15crewdawg

Member
Dead on. Every RC pilot should have the safety of manned aircraft as their first priority followed closely by the safety of those on the ground.
 

Av8Chuck

Member
sorry Chuck but you're wrong. NOTAM's aren't issued for each and every fireworks display in the country. Flying around fireworks is not prohibited and 1500' is not a real number. 1000' about populated areas is one guideline and 500' above unpopulated areas is another. Fireworks over a body of water may or may not have a NOTAM issued and if they don't then flying in the vicinity of the display would't be prohibited.

So, in reality, the only thing sanctimonious is your criticism of the people calling foul on the MR pilots flying in, around, and above fireworks displays.

In all circumstances, unmanned aircraft are to give way to manned aircraft. A guy flying FPV in, around, and above fireworks displays can't maintain visual separation with aircraft that may be in the area. There is no wiggle room on this in any sensible person's head.

Practically speaking, flying in the middle of a display is probably safe where manned aircraft separation concerns are being raised. What a collision with a fireworks shell would do to a helicopter though, and if it's possible in a collision to redirect an unexploded shell towards the viewing public, that's another story.

Bart

I'm guessing the fireworks were at about 500' and the NOTAM was for 1000' above that in case of any arrant fireworks.

Your point about FPV is spot on and has nothing to do with fireworks, no FPV pilot can maintain visual separation with aircraft which is why the FAA wants to ban FPV. As a pilot you know as well as I do that the odds of that MR interfering with a full sized aircraft where virtually non existent. As pilots all we want to talk about are the rules, safety this and separation that. None of this has anything to do with the rules, its about public perception.

Why aren't we discussing ways to create messages that communicate all the potential good things that sUAS could offer? Why aren't we collecting inspirational footage, footage from bridge and windmill inspections, agriculture, farming and construction, and formatting it to make it easy to manage and distribute to news organizations? Why aren't we developing a strategy for disseminating all of this information to local municipalities that are struggling with the issues that come with sUAS?

If we want a career in sUAS then we have to make it happen, no one is going to do it for us. So why aren't we doing this? Oh yeah, because were too damn busy debating the rules!

And if you don't believe that then all you have to do is compare the number of downloads of the video we're talking about, almost 4M to the number of signatures we've received on the petition - almost 300.
 
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Old Man

Active Member
I agree, too much time is spent debating rules that for all intents and purposes should be pretty simple. I'll stick a few for what I think are reasonable examples.
  • Assure safe separation from all manned aircraft in all flight environments
  • Assure the safety of the general public during any and all flight operations
  • Assure that safe navigation of the aircraft can be maintained at all times
  • Assure that in the event of flight controller/auto pilot/ or other flight critical component failure the aircraft will execute a safe landing or descent 100% of the time
Now, a couple of true stories from the Iraq and Afghanistan sandboxes. We used to fly Iraq using the "Big sky, little airplane" theory. Meaning that our UAV's were for the most part pretty small and we had a lot of airspace so conflict was probably never going to be an issue unless near a major aviation hub like a logistical support area. So one day about 70 clicks out from a major military installation we're tooling around at 3,000 MSl fat, dumb and happy when out of nowhere and in the opposite direction comes a flight of 4 CH-47's flying in pairs and with the pairs in side by side formation. All were full of troops. We didn't see them until it was too late and I'm not sure if they ever saw us but we split the middle of that flight right at pilot eye level. Combined airspeed was ~175 mph. Had we hit one about 40 people would have died. We were exactly where we were supposed to be but the near miss was our fault. The helis had deviated from their assigned flight path and altitude.

So later we come up with a really small altitude encoding transponder to help the military ATC maintain flight separations but there was a problem. Our stuff used GPS altitude but the manned stuff used pressure altitude when they set their altimeters. Guess what? The two altitude types had a natural difference of several hundred feet. Didn't matter that ours was more accurate that theirs, guess who had to change how their system measured and reported altitude? That's right, the one most accurate using GPS altitude reporting. That system was accurate to within only a few centimeters in any axis, but wasn't what manned was using.

So in another place, later in time a relatively small UAV was cleared to land in airspace set aside specifically for its launch and recovery once the LZ was activated. Along comes this Blackhawk and the UAV T-bones the tail rotor. The UAV was in the right place at the right altitude at the right time and well noted by ATC. Fortunately nobody got hurt but guess who was faulted and forced to relocate their operations? Yep, the people that were doing everything right with the small UAV. There have been quite a few other incidents with collisions between manned and unmanned aviation, including a manned heli and a low budget UAV in Australia.

The point is we'll always be the bad guys because manned aviation has the right of way even when they are violating ATC clearances and FAR's. Unfortunately high population density and airports run hand in hand. As population density increases so does the number of people buying and flying the stuff we like to fly for revenue and recreation. Unfortunately a very great percentage of them don't have a clue where their responsibilities start and how those need to be handled. They don't think about anything but how much fun they are about to have and how easy it will be to accomplish what they have set out to do. People on the ground? Shoot, they never even consider them. The darned thing will fly itself home and land if I flip this little switch. What more do I really need to know if it will do that by itself? Manned aircraft at any altitude or location? Heck, that pilot will be able to see our toy, no problem. We have lights on the bottom, yes? Airports? Hey, people are supposed to be able to fly at an airport, right? I mean, we have a right to use the airspace so who the heck do they think they are telling me I can't do that whenever I want to?

So let's spend some time talking about what needs to be done. How much or how little regulation will be necessary to assure safety as much as possible all the way around. What will it take to establish a rules set that will let us fly for hire and make some money doing what we can do oh so well. What will differentiate us from amateurs that can, currently, buy and fly the same stuff we do? Will that be a training syllabus and special certification, or what?

None of us want regulation but do you really see a way of avoiding that? The writing's on the wall and that writing appears to be more severe than it needs to be. Let's talk about making useful regulations instead of ones designed to block us from making a living using affordable equipment.

Then the hard part, how to get that info out to everyone selling, buying, and flying these things.
 
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genesc

Member
This is getting funny and rediculous . Flying a un manned drone over any fireworks display is unsafe, no matter how you look at it. Why drag
the pilots association and all these hi tech words when in reality it was just plain unsafe.

Come on guys get real..
Gene
 

Av8Chuck

Member
Chuck,

I can't tell if you're a troll or not but I can say for sure that you're a great example as to why open source stuff doesn't usually work.

What is it that you think I'm trolling for? You think the suggestion that we should actually do something about what's happening rather than pine about what's slipping through our hands is wrong?

Has it occurred to you that what's happening isn't really about the rules or flying but about politics and public perception? You own a website with almost 20,000 members, each has a vested interest in the outcome of this upcoming ruling and yet there are still less than 300 signatures on that petition. Is that my fault? Did I say something that would prevent people from signing? Quite the contrary.

I'm simply looking at our situation and suggesting things that we should consider doing to create a compelling message and start getting it out there. That's a bad idea? What problem do you think we should solve?

So I'm confused, I thought this was the forum for professionals, I don't give a rats *** who flies through fireworks or if another Phantom fly's away, I want to do commercial sUAS and if that makes me a troll then I'm a Fu$%#n troll.

And I'll tell you straight up your really barking up the wrong tree when you talk about open source and developing technology I've had a rather successful career and doing exactly that.
 

Old Man

Active Member

Has it occurred to you that what's happening isn't really about the rules or flying but about politics and public perception
? You own a website with almost 20,000 members, each has a vested interest in the outcome of this upcoming ruling and yet there are still less than 300 signatures on that petition. Is that my fault? Did I say something that would prevent people from signing? Quite the contrary.

I'm simply looking at our situation and suggesting things that we should consider doing to create a compelling message and start getting it out there.

Chuck, If I may?

I agree with you more than you know, and I'll explain why in a moment. As for those signatures, it's worse than people think. 15-20 of those signatures came from a loosely associated but industry vested group of people. At least 2 came from a giant scale RC airplane site, and a couple came from RC Groups. The rest came from membership here, FPV Labs, and a few other passed on pleas for help. It seems most don't care or can't see what's at stake.

I've been employed in the UAV industry as a pilot, payload operator, repair technician, teacher, and R&D by some of the major sUAS players for the last 10 years. In 2006 they pushed for the formation of the ARC committee and nobody low on the political pecking order was even invited. The vast majority of the players were people directly associated with companies and organizations already flying hardware for the military overseas. Others were developing hardware under DARPA funding or part of the airline and general aviation lobbying groups. I know two of the people that were on that committee. The hobby enthusiast wasn't even considered a relevant factor. They still aren't.

Iraq was soon to be ending and the mood of the population indicated Afghanistan was not going to run much longer. The players making BIG money from UAV's were soon to loose their cash cows because war was going to end, deployments were going to close and pull back, and our government had severely restricted who UAV technology could be sold to under ITAR regulations. The people making big money do not like to stop making big money so a new place to peddle their wares had to be found. Those that could sell to friendly, "approved" governments started doing so but that market is truly limited. The competition for that market heated up tremendously in 2013 and making that worse was another new major and previously established player or two entered the field, further squeezing the market. World agreements had already been made to place UAV's in all the free world's airspace before the ARC committee had even gotten started. So know most of the free world has civil airspace rules for UAS, small or large, with only implementation left to go. The U.S. is way behind and to make it happen they have to publish some rules, rules that will be heavily weighted to those groups that sat the ARC committee and those that contribute $ millions annually to the various political factions in Washington. Corporations and governments plan in the long term so what we are looking at today was set in motion by 2008. Since 2008 all the large UAV corporations have been actively promoting their wares with every law enforcement agency in the U.S. Some Midwest and west coast states have been flying sUAS under "waivers" for some time in both law enforcement and structural survey activities. Our borders and maritime areas have been patrolled by UAV's for quite some time. All that's needed to make the money flow is to finally open the airspace.

So you are 100% correct, we are dealing with public perception, which the media is doing a great job of portraying badly for those flying small MR's. We're also dealing with an extreme need to get the word out to everyone that we need to organize in order to lobby to our benefit. Acting disinterested or worse, as a fragmented and incoherent group, works to further reduce any chance we have of saving the professional side of MR activities. The hobby side is pretty much going to be locked down pretty hard no matter what anyone tries. There are two sections in the FAA's 2012 airspace documents that provide the openings needed for professional use of low level MR's and similar to move forward but exploiting those is going to take some work. I don't know anyone that has the funding necessary to get something done on a blanket level. As mentioned, we're too fragmented and individually focused. Those 7 companies that have lobbied for waivers made a good start but we need a lot more. We also need to tell the government how we want to be regulated, determine if we can self regulate, and present documentation and actions that indicate our commitment. Unfortunately the modeling groups are doing everything they can to lock us from airspace use regardless of what is being flown. They are nothing if they aren't sensationalists, and that stuff makes headlines. Bad news is great news for the media, especially when it can be presented as if was being used to promote public safety.

So I certainly don't think you're a troll. Not by any stretch. I do think you aren't as direct as you might want to be in saying what needs to be done and why, but I do believe you definitely know what you are talking about and can't understand why more aren't as engaged in saving themselves as they should be. So what's your view on how to get there from here?

Respectfully
 
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jes1111

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bartman Chuck,


I can't tell if you're a troll or not but I can say for sure that you're a great example as to why open source stuff doesn't usually work.

Ah - Bart's definition of "a troll" again: anyone who persists with a position contrary to mine.

Bart - you really must restrict yourself to one role or the other - either be the owner/arbitrator of this forum or participate in it as an individual. You can't seem to manage both.
 

SMP

Member
During meeting with Director of Intl Airport yesterday. His quote as verbatim as I can remember " I have three local pilots (referring to RC) who we have identified as presenting a serious risk to our flight operations and have forwarded their youtube videos to the FAA for investigation"

Right wrong or indifferent, Authority Having Jurisdiction. Airports are taking action to protect their airspace. Youtube flights are the devil.
 

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