2015 NAB News: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Cam, Tiny, Drone-Specific Super16 RAW Camera

tombrown1

Member
Until I get my hands on one I can't say for sure, but the GH4 sensor is larger. Generally that should mean less noise at any ISO level. Obviously the GH4 shoots in 4K (on the ground that's great if you have an Atomos Shogun, for example, but it's less useful in the air with only 100Mbit/sec data rate). So, the real comparison that matters is the GH4's 200Mbit/sec 1080p vs. this new micro. The micro has a better recording format and data rate with a global shutter. The GH4 has the larger sensor and a very very good 1080p file.

For overall use, I would take the GH4, especially if I wanted a nice option for stills or 4K on the ground. For air use, the micro might just be a bit better (a maybe more than a bit better) as long as one is comfortable with great 1080p in a world where there is a lot of talk about 4K. The global shutter is the real wild card, but if that costs dynamic range then it may not be that great.

Can you link a source for the loss in dynamic range with the global shutter?

As usual, the megapixel wars can overshadow what really matters. In my view, 4K gets to be an interesting and really useful option when it has the quality of good 1080p at the pixel level, just in a file with 4x the pixels and data. That means a bitrate of somewhere in the 300 to 400Mbits/sec range or higher. Nobody offers that in a compact size right now, but they will. Just on paper, one option out there was just announced this week: the Canon XC10 with 305Mbits/sec in 4K. But, it's a fixed lens design with a 1" sensor and not really ideal for flying.

http://nofilmschool.com/2015/04/bla...mera-studio-camera-4k-price-cost-availability


Looks like an amazing camera that was tailor made for aerials. Unfortunately it seems like there's a lot of pressure to shoot 4k. Even if it's not very useful. Kind of a litmus test.
 

tombrown1

Member
Is there any gimbal out there apart from FreeFly's MōVI lineup and DJI's flight controller / Zen combination that uses GPS at all (at least in the range we are discussing here)? I'm starting to wonder how much this GPS correction matters, but also thinking to myself that the only really great gimbals I've seen are the M5 and DJI's Zens.

I've asked the CP creater what he thinks of this GPS issue, but no response so far (his product doesn't use GPS, so that may be a factor). I was hoping he would tell us why a well-designed controller doesn't need GPS correction to maintain steady horizon.


Samur has responded to this GPS issue before in this forum and others I believe. He's a busy dude and I'm surprised he didn't get back to you - he seems ridiculously good about responding to people. Here's one exchange:

Originally Posted by tombrown1
I notice left-high horizon between :43 and :53. What have you done to keep the horizon level while the craft is in motion? AlexMos is almost impossible to completely fix in this regard. Zen uses FC info, and Movi uses a GPS unit. It seems like gyros and accelerometers alone won't cut it.

Best,

Tom


Samur writes:

1. We know there are horizon problems in this video. These are still being addressed. The gimbal in the BMPCC video wasn't exactly level to begin with, by the way.

2. There's still horizon drift on all the systems you mentioned (MoVi, Z15 and H3-3D/H3-2D). There are countless examples of bad Z15 horizon, and there's H3-3D horizon drift on DJI's own videos.

3. Horizon drift is a complicated, systematic issue with multiple contributors.
There's no magical solution. A GPS helps only in a situation where platform sustains prolonged accelerations in a single direction, which is rarely the case on a multirotor (because they never accelerate beyond 50-60km/h, and have very limited lateral accelerations).
For most multirotor applications, a GPS or FC connection would have limited value. We have deployed several mechanisms to reduce horizon drift. Our entire operation and calibration process is different enough to make us believe we can reduce horizon problems.

Remember these videos are from testing, and the horizon is one of the primary subjects being tested.
 

econfly

Member
I've been on a gimbal hunt for this little micro for the past few days. Here is another option.

I chatted with a Gremsy rep last night about their H6. The rep was very helpful and told me all about how to mount it to standard rails, etc. Later, in my searching for options I found reference to their upcoming H3 model showed at NAB. So, I asked the rep about it. Here is their reply:

  • H3 is one of the most intuitive gimbal in the market. Its weight is only 1.87 lbs for EcoFly Version up to 3.7 lbs payload.
  • The H3 also was updated the newest innovation resolution 0.005 degree. The gMotion Controller made by Gremsy based on a 32 bit ARM high speed microprocessor providing fast response and accurate calculation.
  • The H3 is really the best choice for small cameras: GH4, DSLRs, BMPCC, BMCC
  • gPower: 3S - 3100 mAh Li-ion Batteries applying for the H3 can use within 6 - 8 hours.
  • It support Window, Mascosx, iOS, android. Beside, it also support joystick, SBUS, Spektrum.
  • Auto Tuning Feature – one touch gains optimal setting. The Users just need to spend under 5 minutes setting up and balance.

More about the H3 should be on the Gremsy website soon, they say. Gremsy is developing a very good reputation for product quality and service from what I can find online. My brief experience with them has been very positive.

This upcoming H3 gimbal (due in July) may be just the trick for smaller cameras. And the weight is very impressive. For comparison, a DJI BMPCC gimbal alone (without camera) weighs about 2.8 to 2.9 lbs. The H3 from Gremsy is under 2 lbs.
 


maxwelltub

Member
When I looked at the Gremsy at NAB it looks like pore build quality. It has GPS, but the mounting and balancing screws did not look good for long term repeated use. The Besteady 4 looks really awesome, no gps but multiple IMUs on different axis that help correct for roll errors.

The black magic booth had the Mirco balanced on some sort of Zen. Might have been the pocket cam version.

Also here is good explanation on sensor size and relation to dynamic range and noise.
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm
 


maxwelltub

Member
Well at NAB no one at the booth (when i was there) really knew how the gimbals worked to compensate roll drift, but one of there larger models did have a gps puck. There was also a Canadian pilot who was working the booth that had used it and said it didn't roll in his experience.
 

I'd very neutrally advise everyone not to buy anything for multirotor use before you see aerial footage. Handheld use and multirotor use are two completely distinct applications - something can look great on the ground but horrible in the air for a variety of reasons (damping, lack of controller precision, various drifting).
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
I'd very neutrally advise everyone not to buy anything for multirotor use before you see aerial footage. Handheld use and multirotor use are two completely distinct applications - something can look great on the ground but horrible in the air for a variety of reasons (damping, lack of controller precision, various drifting).

after all the failed product launches and underperforming hardware you'd think people would be over the whole 'pre-order' fantasy of things being as good as initially advertised/marketed. i understand problems happen but items should be heavily discounted if a manufacturer wants money before there is hard evidence of performance available to buyers.
 

maxwelltub

Member
Totally agree with both these last post. The reason the movi is so good for me is that I can rent it rather then buy. Can't do that with any other gimbal.
 

SamaraMedia

Active Member
H3 does look very interesting. The leg thingies are brilliant, very inspector gadget.


Is it me or does the camera seem to drift off and lose orientation when he twists it? A couple times it seemed to be a little slow to react which I understand can be to compensate for yaw rotation but a couple times it seemed like the camera was pointing down a little compared to where it started in his twisting motions. When he went o the upper orientation it looked like the caera was pointing up slightly rather than slightly down when he began the move. It does look like a promising like gimbal though.
 

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
^^^

I noticed that too. But I also found myself getting dizzy watching his constant movements and wishing he would just quit and show the gimbal doing something close to what I might expect to see in average use. Or even hold it still for some close-ups.

It's like he had the equivalent of gimbal A.D.D.! :)
 

econfly

Member
after all the failed product launches and underperforming hardware you'd think people would be over the whole 'pre-order' fantasy of things being as good as initially advertised/marketed. i understand problems happen but items should be heavily discounted if a manufacturer wants money before there is hard evidence of performance available to buyers.

Excellent point Bart. One thing we discussed recently was how products seem to get to reviewers late in the cycle -- and usually after official release. It would be better for buyers and for the sellers to seed products with reviewers pre-release. But it seems as if the incredible speed of innovation in these markets is causing companies to announce features that don't really exist, to prototype hardware and just assume firmware can fix problems later, etc.

Reputation becomes very important as a result. A great example in my case recently was the Atomos Shogun. Atomos has a great reputation for both making excellent products and for solid service. So, many (including me) pre-ordered the Shogun. Then the release was delayed, the initial firmware was incomplete, and months later we finally have a solid and usable product (it's actually pretty amazing at this point with more features to come). Even the best out there are just guessing about the development calendar. And, increasingly, the software/firmware is the last piece of the puzzle (and almost always more difficult than assumed). This is a classic example of something happening just because it can: Firmware can be shoved in at the very last minute of development, unlike hardware which depends on outside vendors, tooling, PCB layout and stuffing, etc.

A common result of all of this, by the way, is over-built hardware (more capable micro controllers, more memory, etc.). The worst outcome for the builder is to find out down the road that the promised firmware features need memory that isn't there, or processing cycles that the hardware can't provide. So, better to overbuild a bit. This is in large contrast to the days when firmware largely didn't exist. Then the mark of a good engineer was the ideal and most efficient design.

Everything is in perpetual beta, and the choice is to be an unpaid beta tester with new hardware or to use yesterday's products. The right decision depends on what we need, when we need it, and how much we trust the company selling us that shiny new thing. Another example: We are at a place now where flight controllers and firmware from a year or two ago can be the best choice.

The gimbal problem is actually more interesting than it first appears. Demands are incredibly high. A little horizon drift and the internet blows up with complaints. But anyone with any experience knows that you can get amazing footage even with a little drift here and there. Maybe you touch up the roll axis heading into a shot, you edit around it, work the camera angle to avoid revealing the problem, or live with it and call it art. A gimbal that can deal with vibrations and produce smooth movements is the key, and that seems to have a lot to do with the physical as much as the software.

Anyway, long post. I remain very interested in what @SleepyC has to say about the Gremsy H6.
 
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Awesome post @econfly, definitely on the money. But what choice do manufacturers have? Look at NAB: Freefly announced four or five products, none of which can be shipped for months. Blackmagic announced an insane number of products - easily 20 - and again, I bet most of them aren't ready to ship. I ordered a micro cinema camera, BH said July but I'm building on September.
RED is taking deposits for a sensor that's going to ship in 2016.

As devices become smarter, the complexity shifts to the firmware (up to a point it's like 10:1 or worse firmware/hardware work mix) and this stuff is expensive to develop and takes time. Also, as the low hanging fruits are picked, customers expect more (gimbals are the ultimate example of that).

The industry - both the multirotor one and the cinema one - expects 12 month product cycles, at most, after which you're outdated, defeated by the next promising vaporware.

It's not going to change so we all better get used to it. We knew it's going to be like this, so you know what we did? We built an incredibly robust and simple automated firmware update mechanism and we put a huge effort on our cloud based diagnostics, which I'm 99% sure no other company in the MR or cinema space has. The user doesn't see that, but its infrastructure we need to keep improving and addressing changing needs.
Just go with a company that you feel good about and that would be upfront in dealing with its users, and check often for new firmware. It's only going to get worse.
 

econfly

Member
I've been following the CP development and it is very impressive to see how you've focussed on the infrastructure really needed to solve issues and learn from customer experience. That tells us you are positioning yourself to be in this market with real commitment, and that goes a long way to developing a reputation. It must be maddening to have that huge uncontrolled component out there of myriad (mostly poorly made) gimbals matched with your controller, and you getting much of the blame for problems. I would love to see you give us one or two complete solutions -- gimbals you make ideally designed to work well with the CP. I get the sense you are working in that direction, and if so that will be a wonderful thing. As you well know, even as advancements have been made the choices out there for great performance, good software, easy adjustment, etc. are very few in number.
 

xahhax

Member
Does it shoot stills? Last BMCC didn't and that was a showstopper for me so I would have hoped they'd offer this option.
Any clue? It is not mentioned in the specs...How hard could it be to implement this in the software!?
 

SleepyC

www.AirHeadMedia.com
Does it shoot stills? Last BMCC didn't and that was a showstopper for me so I would have hoped they'd offer this option.
Any clue? It is not mentioned in the specs...How hard could it be to implement this in the software!?

Blackmagic cameras are video cameras. No stills. But with RAW and especially 4K, just pull a still form the video, it looks great.
 

xahhax

Member
gopro shoots stills (actually both video and stills at the same time, which is a very cool feature...)
I don't see why it would be so difficult to implement this...and this one is not 4K...so still not an option for me...really too bad...
 

econfly

Member
What are using to shoot 4K now?

This little micro from Blackmagic records 1080p with global shutter at 30fps, with a CinemaDNG raw bitrate of 65MB/sec, and with a 12.5 x 7 mm sensor shooting through any MFT lens you want. GoPro 4 Black 4K has a rolling shutter, a 6.2 x 4.6 mm sensor and records compressed 4K at about 7.5MB/sec (60Mbit/s) through a fixed lens.

Compared to the GoPro, the Blackmagic micro is recording nearly nine times as much data from a sensor almost four times as large and with a global shutter and more dynamic range. There is just no comparison with respect to the quality of the footage. And, as noted by @SleepyC above, you can pull a frame from the Blackmagic and get a nice still image (the camera is aimed squarely at video, and stills would be limited to 1080p -- it would not make sense to fly it if still imagery is the goal). I like the GoPro for what it can do in a small footprint. But, the current production Blackmagic pocket blows away a GoPro (I think it's as good or better than a GH4 at 1080p for that matter). This new micro promises to be even better. The comparison is so lopsided it's hardly even fair to talk about it.
 
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xahhax

Member
...absolutely agree...however it does not shoot stills. I need both in one camera.
I have a S900/Gh4 which I can configure for both...but when I travel I need something lighter...
That BMCC would have been perfect if it could shoot stills as well....
 

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