SkyJib Octocopter for Filmmaking with RED Epic

[DCDK]

Hi,

that's my first post in this forum, since I just started getting interested into octocopters.

I work, now that I have finally finished university, as a film director and producer (www.a-better-truth.com) and got some jobs in the next months where multicopter shots are necessary. Originally, I wanted to hire two operators (pilot and camera operator) with an multicopter, but since I'll be using the multicopter quite often for those projects, I considered buying one and pay for some training of the camera operator (who has already some experience with multicopters).

I got offers from different companies for octocopters, did some read-up about the components (again: I will not fly nor assemble the multicopter, other people / companies will do so) and would like to get now some advice of people who work with multicopters.

The requirements at the multicopter are the following:

- Has to be able to fly a RED Epic / Scarlet camera (including hdmi transmitter, batteries, lens and so on) weighting up to 5kg (12lbs)

- Should be able to pan

- Should be, if possible, upgradable if needed in the next years (stronger motors etc)

- Should be as cheap as possible to justify purchasing it instead of renting it

Below is a list of components I consider to buy. But I still have some questions concerning some of the parts and whether an alternative is better (at the same price range).

1x Graupner LiPo 2S/2300
1x Photohigher PRO AV-200 for RED EPIC
4x Lipo Akku ULTIMATE 5000mAh 5S1P 18,5V 45C/90C
1x Copter Deluxe UBEC 4A
4x XOAR 15x5" propeller pair in wood
8x Tiger Motor MT3515-15 Brushless Motor
1x Droidworx - SkyJib - SJ8
1x Photohigher SkyJib Retracts
8x Copter Deluxe Brushless Regler 70A OPTO 400Hz
1x PhotoHigher SkyJib 360 Grad PAN-Kit
1x PhotoHigher Skyline RSGS
1x HoverflyPRO Blackboard
2x MX-12 6-Kanal Gr. HoTT
1x Graupner ULTRA DUO PLUS 60

plus of course cables and other stuff.

First of all... are there any errors in this setup?

Then... should I get Tiger MT3515-15 or AXI 4120/20 (or any other) motors?

Hoverfly PRO Blackboard or DJI Wookong M? I don't really need GPS, but it's a nice feature to have.

Would two MX12 work? Or should I get one MX-20 and one MX-12? There will always be two operators.

Any are there any alternatives to the SkyJib retract? It's quite expensive...

Of course I'm open for alternatives also for the other components.

I truly would appreciate you help. Thanks in advance
David

 

[Lanzar]

Hello,

You have at least 4 totaly wrong items.
Mx12 will not work att all. And for cameraman the remote has to be good to make nice slow motion.
4s with tiget 3515 is a nogo. For lifting 5kg you need 5s or 6s 8000mha or more for 8 min flight per 2xbattery.
chargers. With your charger you will charge 1 day nonstop to charge the batteries. YOu need 2 chargers with 1000wat to charge the bateries in 30 min per pack.

Well i suggest you do some more research before you buy.

 

[Lanzar]

Flying with red and prime lenses is not a joke. Since red in your case will be the price x2 or 3 off the helikopter. I suggest that you do not cut the budget on kopter since from my experience it has never been good. YOu need to get some system that has proven to work and handle with red. There are not many kopters that can do it. Most off the guys flown it for 30 sec 3m above the ground and landed . You also need to remember multirotors are not 100% safe.
You need telemetry, wantch on temperatures, take care off the hely like it is a baby. From my experience you will need 6 months to get all the stuff, assemble it, test and train before you will do footage that will satisfy you.

About flying and doing it i also suggest that you buy your pilot a training helikopter and let him train as much as he can. Then when you assemble it they will need to train flying and recording since it looks easyer than it realy is.
This is a example on how not to do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opZDKXybZGE&feature=player_embedded

 

[Sanwa]

i think the prob 15"-5 should fly with 6s battery. or 15"-8 with 5s battery.

 

[DCDK]

Since red in your case will be the price x2 or 3 off the helikopter. I suggest that you do not cut the budget on kopter since from my experience it has never been good.
From my experience you will need 6 months to get all the stuff, assemble it, test and train before you will do footage that will satisfy you.

About flying and doing it i also suggest that you buy your pilot a training helikopter and let him train as much as he can. Then when you assemble it they will need to train flying and recording since it looks easyer than it realy is.

Thanks Lanzar for you input. As I wrote, the pilot has experience with octocopters. I don't own nor will I buy a RED camera (since the budget for technical equipment is more or less gone after purchasing the octocopter). I'll rent a RED.

I'm sure that it's not easy to fly or to assemble it, but I doubt that it will take 6 months if people who are specialists in this field will do it.

 

[DCDK]

i think the prob 15"-5 should fly with 6s battery. or 15"-8 with 5s battery.

Is there any special brand / battery which you could recommend?

 

[Lanzar]

Well i can probably say that Kopterworx built more skyjibs 5kg capable then all together. This is just to explain that i know off what i am talking. I am just stating that if you have a lot off experience in this field you could do it in 2 months. Since after it is build there are a lot off small things that need to be sorted and that is vibrations and video signal .....
And flying skyjib is not the same as flying AD8 or smaller kopter. Depends on electronics used but it is still not the same. Takes more skill.
I wish you good luck and looking forward to see progress.

 

[Benjamin Rowland]

Lanzar is offering some excellent advice - listen to him!

 

[DCDK]

Lanzar is offering some excellent advice - listen to him!

I value the experience of everyone on this forum. But what I need right now is advice on the components.

The shots being filmed with an octocopter in those projects are simple: the octocopter just has to move slowly straight up. We shoot at an open space: no wall or trees, no water...

Without any doubt the operator will spend a lot of time, before and after the filming, training to fly the copter.

 

[redridinghood]

1x Graupner LiPo 2S/2300 ?
1x Photohigher PRO AV-200 for RED EPIC + AV200 enlarged tray
4x Lipo Akku ULTIMATE 5000mAh 5S1P 18,5V 45C/90C Or 6S 11000mah
1x Copter Deluxe UBEC 4A CC bec 10 amp
4x XOAR 15x5" propeller pair in wood Or Graupner 14x8
8x Tiger Motor MT3515-15 Brushless Motor Or Axi 4120
1x Droidworx - SkyJib - SJ8
1x Photohigher SkyJib Retracts
8x Copter Deluxe Brushless Regler 70A OPTO 400Hz
1x PhotoHigher SkyJib 360 Grad PAN-Kit + Upgraded pan servo modded for 360 (Savox1258TG)
1x PhotoHigher Skyline RSGS Or Picloc 3x pro V2 or Hoverfly gimbal stabi
1x HoverflyPRO Blackboard Or DJI Wkm with 5.10 firmware
2x MX-12 6-Kanal Gr. HoTT Better MX20 + MX16
1x Graupner ULTRA DUO PLUS 60 Or Turnigy Fatboy 8 + 1500 power supply

5.8ghz video TX RX
Monitor
Wire 12 AWG for motors, 8AWG for power distro
Heavy duty 8mm bullets for all lipo connections.
LED orientation lights.
Good soldering iron
Prop balancer
Telemetry
Lots of practice
Lots of luck

 

[Droider]

Aye Up DCDK..

Lanza is your guy to build it. Go check out the videos they have shot. I know he aint state side but he and KopterWorx are the guys with the experience and the knowhow with BIG machines. Geoff at Quadcopters.co.uk has also built some biguns but I dont think any of them have carried that kind of payload. Trust me. It takes lots of time and effort to build a machine of that scale. Experienced or not any pilot that has not flown that size of machine before will need a lot of time on the sticks to be confident with it.... even if it is straight up and down. If you only have a few shots like that for it hire a crew in it will be easier.

I have been a professional pilot for just 10 months now and have hundreds of hours on the sticks of my ADX3HL which is a tadpole in comparison. I have been approached by people wanting me to fly their big machines but I simply refuse to do so. It takes a long time to know what your craft is capable of let alone pilot it to its full capability. I think Lanzar is being conservative in stating 6 months to build and fly a machine of that size.

I am not saying its an impossible task to get one up and running with good results quicker but it will be a brave man who takes the sticks of a craft that size with a Red on it with out lots of hours just flying it.

Dave

 

[Aviator]

Good advice Dave I have been flying for over 17 years and would still not feel confident flying a new machine for at least a week of flying it every day and getting to know how it reacts to different conditions, these things can be very dangerous in unexperienced hands, in my opinion you should be able to fly without using any fancy flight controllers first and then move on, so if all the sensors fail or there is a malfunction you still have the skills to bring the machine down safely if possible? That takes alot of practice, time and knowledge. It will show in your production if the pilot or operator is not experienced....

 

[DCDK]

1x Graupner LiPo 2S/2300 ?
1x Photohigher PRO AV-200 for RED EPIC + AV200 enlarged tray
4x Lipo Akku ULTIMATE 5000mAh 5S1P 18,5V 45C/90C Or 6S 11000mah
1x Copter Deluxe UBEC 4A CC bec 10 amp
4x XOAR 15x5" propeller pair in wood Or Graupner 14x8
8x Tiger Motor MT3515-15 Brushless Motor Or Axi 4120
1x Droidworx - SkyJib - SJ8
1x Photohigher SkyJib Retracts
8x Copter Deluxe Brushless Regler 70A OPTO 400Hz
1x PhotoHigher SkyJib 360 Grad PAN-Kit + Upgraded pan servo modded for 360 (Savox1258TG)
1x PhotoHigher Skyline RSGS Or Picloc 3x pro V2 or Hoverfly gimbal stabi
1x HoverflyPRO Blackboard Or DJI Wkm with 5.10 firmware
2x MX-12 6-Kanal Gr. HoTT Better MX20 + MX16
1x Graupner ULTRA DUO PLUS 60 Or Turnigy Fatboy 8 + 1500 power supply

5.8ghz video TX RX
Monitor
Wire 12 AWG for motors, 8AWG for power distro
Heavy duty 8mm bullets for all lipo connections.
LED orientation lights.
Good soldering iron
Prop balancer
Telemetry
Lots of practice
Lots of luck

Thank you so much! Would you always prefer the alternative you have given or are there some parts where both are equally good?

 

[redridinghood]

Yes for everything except the motors. Since the 4120 is heavy and only needed for extreme loads. If you are going to keep it as light as possible then the tigers will do. Remember to get nyloc nuts and replacement bearings for them.

FYI if there is a slight chance you don't need the Red in the air a lighter setup with a Gopro black 3 or a hacked GH2 on a Zenmuse will produce sufficient quality footage to cut between the Red's. This lighter setup will be much easier to fly and produce more 'risky' shots.

 

[Lanzar]

1x Graupner LiPo 2S/2300 probably for gimball
1x Photohigher PRO AV-200 for RED EPIC + AV200 enlarged tray
4x Lipo Akku ULTIMATE 5000mAh 5S1P 18,5V 45C/90C Or GensAce 10000mha 6s to be used in pairs.
1x Copter Deluxe UBEC 4A CC bec 10 amp
4x XOAR 15x5" propeller pair in wood Or xoar 16x6 if used in cooxial setup, much better.
8x Tiger Motor MT3515-15 Brushless Motor Or KW10 motors
1x Droidworx - SkyJib - SJ8
1x Photohigher SkyJib Retracts
8x Copter Deluxe Brushless Regler 70A OPTO 400Hz or any 60 or 80 amp esc with 400mhz like maytech or ours.
1x PhotoHigher SkyJib 360 Grad PAN-Kit
1x PhotoHigher Skyline RSGS Or Picloc 3x pro V2
1x HoverflyPRO Blackboard Or DJI Wkm with 5.08 firmware
2x MX-12 6-Kanal Gr. HoTT Better MX20 pilot and mc20 for cameraman
1x Graupner ULTRA DUO PLUS 60 Or PowerLab 6 Charger 2x + 60amp power suplly

5.8ghz video TX RX
Monitor
Wire 12 AWG for motors, 8AWG for power distro
Heavy duty 8mm bullets for all lipo connections.
LED orientation lights.
Good soldering iron
Prop balancer
Telemetry for graupner

I think this would to the trick and it will fly. Rest is up to you.

 

[SMP]

Not trying to be discourteous DCDK but at this price point and experience level, (like us) why wouldn't you consider a Ready to Fly RTF Package rather than trying to piece the build at a component level. The software configuration, the flight control configuration, interconnectivity of all the components in conjunction with the ground station alone etc, etc warrants someone not only with experience building but flying and tuning the entire system into an acceptable Platform. Just something to consider.

We have purchased a number of RTFs including a Skyjib from Aerial Media Pros and the previous posters are leaders in the Industry.

 

[Macsgrafs]

Just to add more fuel here...I fly an octo (SJ8) with a canon 40D & a Panasonic HD9....with the panasonic onboard you don't know you're carrying the weight, but with the canon.....let's just say you can feel it, feels like I'm flying a totally different ship.

Building your own is a great idea, at least you know how it goes together should you ever have a unexpected arrival with terra firma.

Ross

 

[DCDK]

4x XOAR 15x5" propeller pair in wood Or xoar 16x6 if used in cooxial setup, much better -> Do you mean the 16x5? Couldn't find 16x6 at you shop. Do the 16x5 fit the SkyJib 8?
8x Tiger Motor MT3515-15 Brushless Motor Or KW10 motors -> are they available? Any other opinions towards these motors?
1x PhotoHigher Skyline RSGS Or Picloc 3x pro V2 -> Is the Picloc available?

Should I consider this option
1x Photohigher PRO AV-200 for RED EPIC
1x Photohigher PRO AV-200 PAN Kit + Upgraded pan servo modded for 360 (Savox1258TG)
or go with Lanzar's
AV200 + 360 pan RTU V3?

Thanks
David

 

[SteadiDrone]

Hello David.

Have a look see at www.steadidrone.com - We develop and munufacture large octos for flying bigger cameras like the red, and our background being film and production, we've been able to flow the two into each other, knowing what the film guys want and need, and being able to develop and test our systems to the max. I really do believe our systems are very competitive compared to other units available and if you look at what's actually included in our full RTF kit and the features and lift our copters can do. A huge key point of our system over DW, Cinestar etc is our arms are very quick to remove and fold down, where the entire unit then simply slides into a pelican case (provided) from in the case to in the air under 10min, this is ESSENTIAL if you want to actual travel with your rig and use it daily. Also looking at your list, a lo of your items are VERY much overkill, relaly don't need 70A ESC, those motors only do 30A max, and running 6S lipos, you are using far less A with the 16" props we use which = more airtime. We've flown our systems on thousands of flights, including tets and full commercial jobs with no issueas. The new ArduCopter code is simply amazing, has what I believe to be the best and easiest to use software of any FC out there, and is the easiest thing to setup, and best of all, super reliable, again we fly for films/tv commercial mainly and have over the last year fine tuned our systems to offer the best possible for the best price. have a look, let me know your thoughts.

 

[DCDK]

Hello David.

Have a look see at www.steadidrone.com - We develop and munufacture large octos for flying bigger cameras like the red, and our background being film and production, we've been able to flow the two into each other, knowing what the film guys want and need, and being able to develop and test our systems to the max. I really do believe our systems are very competitive compared to other units available and if you look at what's actually included in our full RTF kit and the features and lift our copters can do. A huge key point of our system over DW, Cinestar etc is our arms are very quick to remove and fold down, where the entire unit then simply slides into a pelican case (provided) from in the case to in the air under 10min, this is ESSENTIAL if you want to actual travel with your rig and use it daily. Also looking at your list, a lo of your items are VERY much overkill, relaly don't need 70A ESC, those motors only do 30A max, and running 6S lipos, you are using far less A with the 16" props we use which = more airtime. We've flown our systems on thousands of flights, including tets and full commercial jobs with no issueas. The new ArduCopter code is simply amazing, has what I believe to be the best and easiest to use software of any FC out there, and is the easiest thing to setup, and best of all, super reliable, again we fly for films/tv commercial mainly and have over the last year fine tuned our systems to offer the best possible for the best price. have a look, let me know your thoughts.

Sounds interesting. I sent you an email.

Could also others comment whether I should take the Cinestar 3 axis gimal system (with an Cinestar 8) instead of the AV200 + SkyJib?

Cheers
David