SkyJib Octocopter for Filmmaking with RED Epic

[Helirazor]

Just a quick note droidworx also have a new Sky-jib with arms that fold (version2) and detachable camera mount just another thought. This is big machine capable of carrying epic, fs700 etc. Speak to either Rob or Linda @ DW they are very passionate about their product.
there is a pic of it on our FB page - http://www.facebook.com/HeliShotProductionsLtd?ref=ts&fref=ts
You probably now have a small feel of the road ahead, happy journey.

Cheers

 

[Helirazor]

We just uploaded this video we shot yesterday aerials done with SJ8 V2 AV200 FS700. Its a expo show in NZ called Big Boys Toys, name speaks for itself.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151152938634440

Cheers

 

[3dheliguy]

Lol, this guy has got some guts...

 

[DCDK]

Ok I had the chance to delay the shooting for four weeks. I want to order this week all the parts. What do you all think of this setup?

1x Freefly Cinestar8
1x Freefly 3 Axis Gimbal
4x Lipo Akku 8000mAh 6S1P
4x XOAR 16x5" propeller pair in wood
8x Tiger Motor MT3515-15 Brushless Motor or KW10
1x Picloc 3X II Pro or HoverflyGIMBAL or Freefly Radian
1x HoverflyPRO Blackboard
1x MX-20 12-Kanal Gr. HoTT
1x MX-12 6-Kanal Gr. HoTT
1x Graupner ULTRA DUO PLUS 60

Do the props fit? Which motor should I take? Is the Radian worth its premium price?

Thanks for all the help
David

 

[Lanzar]

16 inch does not fit. 15 is maximum i think. Radian stabilization for frefely mount. U need seperate batery suply 5v for it.
ULTRA DUO PLUS 60 is 10 amp maximum charge. I think on 6s even less than 10amp. So charging a 8000mha battery with 10 amps would take forewer. From 80min up to 100min per batery. Buy a better charger with at least 400wats. Recomended are 650wat or 1000 wat.
Piclock : only way to get it is to buy a used one and risk it.
Still mx12 does not have enough chanells for piclock and rest. YOu need better transmiter for camera operator. (dont get me wrong it can be done with mx12 but it is unpractical and later on if you will add shutter cable or something it will be a problem)

 

[DCDK]

16 inch does not fit. 15 is maximum i think. Radian stabilization for frefely mount.
Piclock : only way to get it is to buy a used one and risk it.
Still mx12 does not have enough chanells for piclock and rest. YOu need better transmiter for camera operator. (dont get me wrong it can be done with mx12 but it is unpractical and later on if you will add shutter cable or something it will be a problem)

Hi Lanzar,

I found some RTF unit by Steadidrone.com using 16x4.5” Wood Props on a Cinestar8. Should I take 4.5 or 5?

Is the Picloc better than the HoverflyGimbal? If the Picloc is not available... is the Hoverfly a good alternative? The Radian is nearly double the price of the alternatives: is it that much better?

I want to buy a MX20 for the pilot and a MX12 for the operator. So that should be enough, or do recommend an other brand / product (same price range or slightly higher).

Cheers
David

 

[Lanzar]

cinestar and 16 inch ??? i need to check but i think its not doable. Too big props for it.
I never tried hoverfly i cant comment. Radian is expensive but works like charm with cs360. Mx16 for operator. Mx12 is not enough.

Cinestar 8 can handle 15in props (1000mm diameter)

 

[BorisS]

DCDK

Stating a list of components and waiting for people to exchange components and comment on whats good or not will not work out for you. People give subjective (which is not meant in a bad way) answers which components are good but their judgement is on the single components and not how they interact with the whole system you are putting together ! In order to really get a working list someone would have to take an hour or more ( and that would have to be an experienced heavy lift builder) to include everything and choose components that have been tested together etc. No one is seriously going to take the time.

I just think the much easier approach would be if you take a look at the RTF setups out there from experienced builders/resellers and not order a RTF bird if you want to build it yourself or someone from your team but to order the RTF components that are listed and tell the reseller make me a package with everything i need !

State for what you really need the copter payload, cam control, flight time etc. and let them configure a setup for you. In the short time you have you will not put together a list that is better than the RTF configs out there but probably will forget about a component or end up with a configuration thats not optimal. Than things might not work and you will rely on posting question here in the form to get answer. If you have the stuff out of one source the infos how to setup things up will come from one source and directly.

(edit)

Especially Gimbal setups are a b---ch. Not for out of the box solutions like a zenmuse, which won't work in you case, but any traditional servo gimbal setups. A good approach would be to get a gimbal setup by a RTF dealer ready working etc. and build the copter around it yourself ! 4 weeks is nothing if you don't have any multi rotor experience !

Boris

 

[Lanzar]

+1 boris

There is a lot off infomation on diferent builds ppl have done. Then you have an option to make a list and buy them in one place. Mixing motors and esc on diferent electronics if you have alredy proved builds is not recomended.

 

[DCDK]

+1 boris

There is a lot off infomation on diferent builds ppl have done. Then you have an option to make a list and buy them in one place. Mixing motors and esc on diferent electronics if you have alredy proved builds is not recomended.

Hi Boris and Lanzar,

I know that RTF builds would be the best way, but I can't make money out of thin air. So I just have to take the risk and hope that the people putting it all together make it work. Of course I'll try to get all the parts from as few shops as possible, or even get everything from one shop, so that they call help me select all the right items to make everything work smoothly together.

So XOAR 15x5" are the way to go with your KW10 Pro and CS8?

Why should I take the MX-16 when I can control the camera functions all over remote by the REDmote?

 

[Lanzar]

Hi Boris and Lanzar,

I know that RTF builds would be the best way, but I can't make money out of thin air. So I just have to take the risk and hope that the people putting it all together make it work. Of course I'll try to get all the parts from as few shops as possible, or even get everything from one shop, so that they call help me select all the right items to make everything work smoothly together.

So XOAR 15x5" are the way to go with your KW10 Pro and CS8?

Why should I take the MX-16 when I can control the camera functions all over remote by the REDmote?

I know that you will try to save money by doing it by yourself and i dont mind. I am just stating that you are about to start a nice hope to be painless jurney. I like to help now and then that is why I answered on this post.
Redmote is short range and for red only you dont need more. I am talking for later since it is better to have spare channels than no channels. And also the gr12 reciver is only 1 antena and short range. Gr16 with mx16 in longer range and 2 antenas.

Nick 1 chanel
pan 2
roll 3
not used on stick 4
stability on/off/reset 5
pan lock on/off6
so if you need you kopter to do pictures on using some other camera with lanc or something you dont have any chanels free.

Yes xoar and 15x5 are gonna do the job with kw10 but 16x6 would be better in coax setup.

 

[Kari]

DCDK,

Totally agree with earlier comments here. One thing i have to mention is that these things are not like cars what comes to maintenance. It's not enough once a year to take them to service but it needs constant checking and tuning. In my opinion it's not safe to use these systems without tearing them regularly down to scratch to check and clean every single piece of the copter including motor bearings, power distribution solder joints, connectors etc and then rebuild and re-tune it. Also you need to get known very well with your machine to hear and see the signs of failure before something bad possibly happens.

If you are planning to use different cameras with it, you need to give good amount of time for testing on ground and in the air every time you to re-adjust and balance copter and gimbal settings for the new payload. Also what i've noticed big octo is not necessarily most optimal in performance for smaller cameras and best possible footage. If you are going to do this professionally one copter is just not enough, you always need also spare one. If there comes even smallest sign of failure i throw my copter to trunk and take new one. It's impossible to start investigate failure or weird behavior in the middle of shooting neither start balancing gimbal for other camera.

I have built RC airplanes from year 1990 and also flown full size gliders in my youth, so flying is nothing new to me. I started with multirotors about a year ago, and i have to say that Lanzars half year at least to learn is quite optimistic. I don't mean only flying and shooting but also learning to adjust and modify your setup to best possible, maintenance, and all other things around it. After hundreds of flights last few months i still feel myself kind of newbie with these things, though they are super easy fly most of the time when all is working good but when you shoot for client is rarely optimal circumstances. Of course at the time of shooting there is blowing 8m/s and solar storm interrupts to gps or then just something fails which have been working flawlessly all the time before. And this happens when you are shooting in the middle of swamp after walking and carrying your stuff by foot 4km there. Now because of client requests i'm building new machine for epic size cameras and i'm sure i'll s€&t my pants when it's time to shoot for client with that setup. Anyway i'm going to fly first a lot with dummy payloads to get the touch for new machine.

But, with all respect this is all just my observations and my subjective experience and i wish all good in your heavy lift project. There is a huge amount of experience in this forum you should listen to, and i really like to hear your progress and please let us know how it all goes.

Best,

Kari

 

[DCDK]

And also the gr12 reciver is only 1 antena and short range. Gr16 with mx16 in longer range and 2 antenas.

Yes xoar and 15x5 are gonna do the job with kw10 but 16x6 would be better in coax setup.

Thanks for the info about the differences between the two MX models!

So you would rather use the 8 motors with 16x6 props as an quadrocopter with coaxial setup? Do you think the CS8 would work, if needed sometime later next year, upgraded to an octocopter setup with 16 motors and 15x5 props? I might need to fly heavy anamorphic lenses on a project, so knowing that such a setup is possible, if needed, would be reassuring to know.

 

[zeng]

Hi DCDK,

I'm testing a machine right now which I built for the same purpose that you're looking into. Normally I'm just listening to the more experienced here, but I guess more ideas can't hurt you. I've been into multirotors just a couple of years, mostly DJI WKM, using S800 with zenmuse now.
But as I'm also a co-owner of a local rental house with the access to all sorts of cameras, I thought I should try lifting Epic or Scarlet up. After all, everyone seems to be doing this already . For this particular coaxial setup I chose:
Fake octo cinestar frame from omgfly.com.
T-motor 3515-15
Xoar 16x5 (for now, also got 16x6, will try 16x6 on bottom props maybe)
Hoverfly Pro, Hoverfly GPS - after testing this I can say that this is the first time I'm not afraid to fly manual, without autopilot assistance.
AV200. Haven't put the camera on yet, testing with the weight of camera+lens
Picloc 3x pro. It works for me. No Zenmuse, but not bad.
Jeti telemetry sensors + Jeti box profi. I'm using 6S lipos with my hoverfly pro, so no lipo info straight from the FC.
Desire power 6S 8300mah lipo x 2
Futaba T8FG
Spektrum DS7 for the camera op.
Immersion Tx/rx

Total weight is 10 - 10.5kg depending on the lens. Seems to be hovering at some 70amps. Haven't tested the full flight time yet, but there was some left after 10minutes flight, and that's perfect in my book.
Here's short video from my tests, sorry for the quality, its a gopro on my head, and I'm looking down at jeti box for amp reading all the time.. Haven't figured where to put that box yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE3MUJEFWsc
Hope you find something helpful from all this.

 

[MombasaFlash]

Thanks for the info about the differences between the two MX models!

So you would rather use the 8 motors with 16x6 props as an quadrocopter with coaxial setup? Do you think the CS8 would work, if needed sometime later next year, upgraded to an octocopter setup with 16 motors and 15x5 props? I might need to fly heavy anamorphic lenses on a project, so knowing that such a setup is possible, if needed, would be reassuring to know.

Oh dear. Never mind just jumping in and flying RED's for a living. Now we are talking about 16 motors and heavy anamorphic lenses?

Go ahead and fry. After all, there is plenty of time since the 'shoot' has been delayed four weeks.

The responses you have received so far have all been very informative and polite but it is evidently all wasted with your blind and headlong rush towards an extremely expensive disaster. Clearly you have conducted some research but your blatantly beginner questions and unrealistic plans plainly illustrate a potentially dangerous ignorance of the whole activity. Folks are generally very helpful around here but it will not be sufficient to simply bombard this forum expecting to find some magic shortcut to practical, hands-on experience.

 

[DCDK]

Oh dear. Never mind just jumping in and flying RED's for a living. Now we are talking about 16 motors and heavy anamorphic lenses?

Go ahead and fry. After all, there is plenty of time since the 'shoot' has been delayed four weeks.

The responses you have received so far have all been very informative and polite but it is evidently all wasted with your blind and headlong rush towards an extremely expensive disaster. Clearly you have conducted some research but your blatantly beginner questions and unrealistic plans plainly illustrate a potentially dangerous ignorance of the whole activity. Folks are generally very helpful around here but it will not be sufficient to simply bombard this forum expecting to find some magic shortcut to practical, hands-on experience.

You do know that there are quite "light" anamorphic lenses (c/g series)? Also I do not intend to fly copters for a living. In fact, as stated in earlier posts, I don't intend to fly them in the next months at all. The camera operator has some experience and will get more training before the shoot.

Anyway... all the posts were helpful and polite, for which I am very grateful. As noted, I don't intend to waste money, rather to spend it efficiently.

Please keep the discussion at the polite level which I enjoyed so much on this forum. I try to do the same when answering questions on other forums about topics where I'm more experienced.

 

[DCDK]

Hi DCDK,

I'm testing a machine right now which I built for the same purpose that you're looking into. Normally I'm just listening to the more experienced here, but I guess more ideas can't hurt you. I've been into multirotors just a couple of years, mostly DJI WKM, using S800 with zenmuse now.
But as I'm also a co-owner of a local rental house with the access to all sorts of cameras, I thought I should try lifting Epic or Scarlet up. After all, everyone seems to be doing this already . For this particular coaxial setup I chose:
Fake octo cinestar frame from omgfly.com.
T-motor 3515-15
Xoar 16x5 (for now, also got 16x6, will try 16x6 on bottom props maybe)
Hoverfly Pro, Hoverfly GPS - after testing this I can say that this is the first time I'm not afraid to fly manual, without autopilot assistance.
AV200. Haven't put the camera on yet, testing with the weight of camera+lens
Picloc 3x pro. It works for me. No Zenmuse, but not bad.
Jeti telemetry sensors + Jeti box profi. I'm using 6S lipos with my hoverfly pro, so no lipo info straight from the FC.
Desire power 6S 8300mah lipo x 2
Futaba T8FG
Spektrum DS7 for the camera op.
Immersion Tx/rx

Total weight is 10 - 10.5kg depending on the lens. Seems to be hovering at some 70amps. Haven't tested the full flight time yet, but there was some left after 10minutes flight, and that's perfect in my book.
Here's short video from my tests, sorry for the quality, its a gopro on my head, and I'm looking down at jeti box for amp reading all the time.. Haven't figured where to put that box yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE3MUJEFWsc
Hope you find something helpful from all this.

Hi Zeng,

thank yo for sharing you setup. Sounds great to me! How's the build quality of the omgfly frame?

Cheers!
David

 

[DCDK]

An other update.

1x Freefly Cinestar8 (with 8x 500mm booms)
1x Freefly 3 Axis Gimbal RED Epic (with 2x 200mm booms & Quadrocopter EPIC tilt bars)
3x Freefly Radian
1x Traco +5V DC/DC converter for Radian, gimbal and receiver
4x XOAR 15x5" propeller pair in wood
8x KW10 Pro
8x TURNIGY Plush 40amp Speed Controller
1x HoverflyPRO Blackboard
1x MX-20 12-Kanal Gr. HoTT + earpiece
1x MX-12 6-Kanal Gr. HoTT
1x Quadropower 1200 mAh 3s Lipo Battery (gimbal, Radian and receiver)
6x MaxAmps 10900mah 2-Cell 120C LiPo with EC5 connectors
1x Turnigy 10XC 10S 400W 10A Dual Channel
1x HobbyKing 540w 220~240v Power Supply (13.8v~18v - 30amp)

Good to go?

Cheers!
David

 

[redridinghood]

FYI

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1761789

 

[yeehaanow]

Anyway... all the posts were helpful and polite, for which I am very grateful. As noted, I don't intend to waste money, rather to spend it efficiently.

That is a VERY hard thing to do, even if you have the best advice. There are so many little things that can nickel and dime you to death in this 'hobby' that it makes it really hard not to be tossing cash out left and right. Never mind the problems you encounter during a build that can set you back weeks or months. Not saying it will happen, but it can.

At the very least, find somebody that does what you are attempting to do, flying heavy expensive cameras, and go to a shoot of theirs. Pay if you have to. I have had many people say they were considering building a setup of their own... until they saw me do it, and realized they're better off hiring someone.