Time to try a Y6

RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
Your motor mount thoughts really have me thinking about a Rusty frame for heavy-lift X8. I placed one the Avroto's on the regular Rusty's motor mount today and you are definitely going to have to drill two new holes in each plate if you are positioning the standoff's at the outside edge. There is not much room there, so curious to see how you go about it. The aluminum plates as a heatsink are another great thought!

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but excuse me if I do for a moment. On Rusty's frame thread over at RCG there has been a lot of talk about square arms and their disturbance to airflow. It got me to looking at the arms on my RC-Carbon X8 and they are really wide and rectangular with the wide side in the prop wash. I found recently that if I lighten the X8 by removing camera weight and fly a single 4s 4500 instead of the two 4s 6000's it does not have the wobble issue (this is with MK FC). Or if I remove the lower motors and fly it as a quad with one 4s 6000 it doesn't have the problem. I am fairly convinced there is some point at which all the weight is causing vibrations (which is counter-theory) or it might have something to do with those super wide arms. I am contemplating having Rusty cut me some 7.5" center plates so the DW landing gear will attach perfectly and having him just move the outer arm clamp holes out proportionately. I would use his large motor mounts and drill two more holes in them so I can have all four screws into the motors and not use the X-mount's. That way I can use the outer holes (motor X-mounts) in these mounts for the standoffs between coax mounts. I would also use his 5/8" round clamps with pultruded carbon or T-rex 500 aluminum booms for arms. I know this would all end up a bit heavier than say a Droidworx's but it would also probably be like $600-700 cheaper. I currently get about 13 minutes flight time with the 2-4s 6000 batteries and camera weight. If I were to still get 10-11 minutes I would be happy. Thoughts?

Sorry to deter from the thread topic. I'm at wits end with the X8.

Shawn

For now I just ordered a set of the larger engine mount plates from Rusty (along with another mini quad frame :) ). That will get the motors mounted and allow me to use a brace between the top and bottom without having to jury rig anything to do it. I don't mind using the X mount, that's how I have the current motors mounted. The advantage is you can install the motor mount plates and put the motors on afterward whereas it would be pretty much impossible to do that when using just the tapped holes on the bottom of the motor.

I've seen the discussion on RCG about the various shapes of the arms, I look at it this way, on a Y6 with big motors and props the airflow over 3 1/2 inch square arms isn't going to amount to a huge issue. If it was a flat hex or octo, then yeah, maybe I'd think more about using round rather than square but probably still use square. The decision to use the 1/2 inch square aluminum was one of practicality, first I already have a bunch I bought a while back, and second, since this frame is to be used for APV I want to be assured the motors are going to stay as straight and square to the frame and each other as possible to make it fly as smooth as possible. I've found with round arms, no matter what you do to locate and secure them, there's always potential and a high probablilty that they're going to be off square by some amount. I think that is going to be more of an issue than the shape of the tubing for the intended use, if a motor isn't perfectly straight its going to be thrusting at an angle which ultimately will have to be compensated for by the flight controller. Have several of them not straight and the problem is magnified, and that's super easy to do with round tubing. I see it even on my Droidworx frame, the motor mount assembly is not pinned perfectly in place and can move to either side a little bit. Bang the motor or mount loading it onto the car and that motor is likely to be off square on the next flight. On Rustys frame compound the problem by using an arm material like carbon fiber where you really can't crank down on the bolts to try and keep the mount from moving and not having any kind of a through bolt to keep things in line and now you need to be continually checking the motors to make sure they're lined up properly, I see that continually on my mini quad with the round C/F arms. In the case of the mini its not that big of a problem as its better for the motor to twist when it hits the dirt and absorb some energy that otherwise might bend or break an arm, not a feature I need on a larger APV craft.

Is all that worth worrying about the aerodynamic difference between a 1/2 inch square tube vs. a 12 MM round? Not to me, I'll accept a little extra turbulence and probable loss of a tiny bit of motor efficiency to not have to be constantly checking motor alignment. Should it turn out to be a major issue, I'll get some really thin aluminum sheet and make some airfoil shaped sleeves to fit over the square arms, though I doubt the difference it would make in the recorded video would make it worth the effort, a bit of post process stabilization if required is a lot less work IMO. For larger sizes of tubing or square arms that might be a different matter, but the 1/2 inch isn't that much different than the 10mm square arms on my standard MK Hexa and it doesn't seem to affect the MK much if at all.

Ken
 

ovdt

Member
I see it even on my Droidworx frame, the motor mount assembly is not pinned perfectly in place and can move to either side a little bit.
Ken

That's right. One of the design problems of Droidworx V2 frames is absolutely this. (If you call this a problem, that was definelty a problem for me while building my AD6-HL).
 

Droider

Drone Enthusiast
I think that withany round tubing gettint the motors spot on is going to take a bit of fiddling. With the coaxial its even more fiddly.. You can have the bottom mount abbsolutly bang on but the top one will be out 3mm at the blade tips.. I usually start by getting the bottom spot on then slowly slackening on clamp bolt and tightening the other to get the top measuring the same to the bench top. I then rotate both props 90º and start again.. it takes a bit of time but when its done its done.. If you have a heavy landing or a blade strike you obviously have to check again.. I think it must be really hard as a manufacturer to use round stock and have pre-drilled holes to get the motors perfect especially on a coaxial..

Its all part of the fun!

Dave
 

Mactadpole

Member
Thanks for all your thoughts on round arms today guys. You inspired me to mount all my Pulso 2814/22's on my Y6 (formerly hexa) frame with 1/2" aluminum arms and Rusty's large motor mounts. I used 2x 13/16" alum standoffs at the outer edge with long screws through the motor x-mount holes (like Rusty's pics on site). I stacked three of my 4s 6000mah batteries on the center plate and put a bit of 1/2" pultruded cf tube between the front arms to support them while I lifted the rear arm with my other hand and bounced it up and down a bit. It is way stiffer than I thought it would be. I then lifted it up by one arm and it only flexed a bit at the center plate. If I get Rusty to make the 7.5" center plates I think I might stick with 1/2" square arms, going to wait for Ken's flights with Avroto's mounted to make a decision.

I gotta solder motors to esc's (hopefully tomorrow) and take some pics.

Thanks again,

Shawn
 

Mactadpole

Member
I did come across this on the DW website:

Engine Mount Fixing - 18/10/2010

There is a change coming in the next machining run of standard engine mounts and CF booms for all droidworx
airframes - providing vertical position locking for securing the engine mounts on the booms for aligning engines.


Do you guys have earlier versions of their frames without this feature?

Shawn
 

Droider

Drone Enthusiast
I did come across this on the DW website:

Engine Mount Fixing - 18/10/2010

There is a change coming in the next machining run of standard engine mounts and CF booms for all droidworx
airframes - providing vertical position locking for securing the engine mounts on the booms for aligning engines.


Do you guys have earlier versions of their frames without this feature?

Shawn


Mine must be an older model coz I aint got this.. so mine must be an earlier version
 

RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
I did come across this on the DW website:

Engine Mount Fixing - 18/10/2010

There is a change coming in the next machining run of standard engine mounts and CF booms for all droidworx
airframes - providing vertical position locking for securing the engine mounts on the booms for aligning engines.


Do you guys have earlier versions of their frames without this feature?

Shawn

I have the updated mounts, it's really nothing more than a stub of material the mount is made of that goes into a hole in the outer end of the arm. Problem is with continual use and over time the vibration tends to wear away at the edges of the stub and it will move a few degrees to either side, so while it does provide a method to keep the motor mount located in an upright position it doesn't guarantee that it will be perfectly square to the frame or the other motors. Another issue is the bolt that goes through the arm at the other end, unless it's a perfectly snug fit, which this isn't, there's also going to be a little play there as well and you can't tighten down on it as much as you might like to keep it from moving, either the carbon fiber of the arm or the plastic mounting blocks will fracture if you do.

The inner mounting blocks are now made of the stronger composite material the H/L motor mount plates are made of so they at least shouldn't break anymore but I think what will happen now is people will crank down on the through bolt and start collapsing the arm from the crush factor. What I do is just do a hands on check after every day of flying, if there's any movement at all I give the retaining nuts a little tweak until the motion is gone while doing my best to get the mount squared to the frame. With square tubing as long as the mounting blocks are machined square to the arm opening itself there's no way that the motor can get out of alignment short of a crash and bending the arm.

Ken
 
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Borneoben

Member
One trick i have learnt regarding clamping down on hollow section arms square or round.

You can insert into the end of your arm arm a wooden dowl about 20-25mm long or just a bit longer than the length of your clamping blocks

This will allow you to really tighten the clamps without fear of the arm collapsing.

If you have wires running through your arms you could just drill a hole in the center of the dowl.

You dont even need to glue them in place just make sure the dowl is a snug fit.

Just a thought..

Ben
 
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RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
It was Christmas in August here today with packages of goodies arriving from literally all over the world! The Avroto motors and ESCs for the Y6 are here as well as the set of the larger motor mounts from Rusty for the frame. A quick eyeball of the motor set on the mount and then held up against the existing mount on the frame reveals I might very well have to disassemble all of the Avrotos and shorten the mainshafts a bit in the lathe before I can use them, it appears there won't be quite enough clearance between the ends of the shafts on the stacked motors as is. Before I go to that length I'll mount 2 of them up and see if they will bolt on with sufficient clearance or if the mods will be needed.

Also received some new taller landing gear and a 2 axis GoPro mount that will be going on the Y6 frame also, so I think I now have all the components I need to make it into the APV multi I want to compliment the capabilities of the two MK Hexa. The work on the Y6 is going to have to wait a bit until I finish the current work taking up space on the bench. A brand new AV130 with all of the latest mods arrived from PhotoHigher today and that will be replacing the AverticalView mount that has been on the AD-6 which will now be able to be fitted to the Y6 when I need to carry something larger than a GoPro.

I hope to have the Y6 mods well under way over the weekend, I'm on vacation next week with no particular plans to go anywhere, just need to use the vacation time so I don't wind up with a bunch unused at the end of the year. Stay tuned for more updates over the coming week...

Ken
 

RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
Here's the Y6 with new landing gear and GoPro 2 axis mount...

IMG_1659a.jpg


A little closer look at the GoPro mount...

IMG_1654a.jpg


It's a tall one and wide too with close to 25 inches motor to motor. Not the ultimate in portability, the Y6 is actually a bit larger than my Droidworx AD-6 Heavy Lifter!

IMG_1665a.jpg


I did a test fit with the Avroto motors, they do fit without modification but just barely. Before it sees serious use there will be aluminum supports bridging the distance between the motor plates at the back screws for the X brackets to make sure what gap there is stays that way.

IMG_1655a.jpg


IMG_1657a.jpg


Now that I know the motors do fit the next step is measure exactly what I need the mount braces to be and go machine up 6 of them in the garage. Solder some connectors to the new ESCs, install them, do the final install of the 6 new Avrotos, connect all the wires, install the 12 x 3.8 props, and see how it flys.

First test flights will most likely be without the new landing gear and GoPro mount, I'll use the old L/G until I see what needs to be tweaked, just in case...

Ken
 


RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
is it just me or does that lower prop in the 3rd pic look wrong?

Could easily be wrong, I just threw some props on for perspective, it's not even anywhere close to ready to fly or for final motor installation for that matter.

Ken
 

RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
Current state of the build...

IMG_1778a.jpg


IMG_1780a.jpg


It won't be flown with this setup until the new flight controller setup arrives and is installed.

Ken
 

Stacky

Member
Ken, a noob question here so forgive me but does the fact the gopro is such a light camera have any impact on your camera gimbals performance? Do the bigger gimbals need camera with more mass to perform at their best?
Thanks
 

RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
Ken, a noob question here so forgive me but does the fact the gopro is such a light camera have any impact on your camera gimbals performance? Do the bigger gimbals need camera with more mass to perform at their best?
Thanks

The gimbal barely notices the GoPro is there, the response is probably as good as it will ever get for roll and tilt compensation. The main problem with a lot of the bigger gimbals is the servos can't deal with the weight of the camera they are often laden with. To me if I were going to make a gimbal specifically for larger or heavier cameras I'd use giant scale servos or a custom gear reduction drive of some sort to deliver the power needed to move a heavy weight as quickly as it needs to for keeping a level horizon.

That's the biggest problem, getting the larger gimbals to respond to changes in level quick enough to produce a steady video when there's 3 or 4 pounds of camera and lens bolted to the platform. Part of the answer is to try and fly in condtions with as little wind as possible and to fly as smoothly as possible to keep everything level so the gimbal doesn't have to do all the work. Where I live the first part is close to impossible, 15 miles inland from the Atlantic ocean is pretty much always windy to some degree so I need to have a light camera that will allow the gimbal to work as best it can and I also try to fly as smooth as I can, again not always possible with variable winds blowing.

Ken
 

RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
Latest update

The Y6 flew with MK electronics yesterday for the first time, hard to judge how well as there was a very gusty wind blowing and with hurricane Irene headed directly towards me its not likely to get better until sometime next week. I may not do much testing with this setup, the plan is to install the DJI controller on the Y6 frame if I can easy figure out how their mixer table configuration works, there isn't any out of the box setup for a Y6. The other option is to make 3 more arms and convert to a flat Hexa which is supported as a default setup option, either way its the only suitable test bed I have for the DJI at the moment.

Ken
 



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