Time to try a Y6

[RTRyder]

Just about to start the build of a Y6, a first for me. I've flown a lot of different configurations but never a Y6, so when it became obvious that the Hoverfly board wasn't happy in its MK quad frame home I decided to take the opportunity to not only give it new frame but also to try out a setup I've never flown before.

A lot of people say the Y6 is the best all around frame setup for APV, and since that is the alleged main purpose for the existance of the Hoverfly Pro flight controller it seemed like a good idea to put the two togther and see what comes out at the end of it all.

Now keep in mind this is not an entirely new build as most people think of it, a very large percentage of the bits to be used have already seen flight time in various projects I've tinkered with as well as having been part of the old Hoverfly quad. Nice thing about the frame set I got is that if I decided I want to try an X8 again it will do it, all I need to do is move the existing 3 arms and add the fourth, so I have options if I decide the Y6 isn't it.

Here's all the bits that will be going into the build...

The frame I'll be using is Rusty's Rev 8. http://www.shop.aglhobbiesllc.com/Rusty-s-Rev-8-Frame-Kit/Rev-8-Frame-Kit.html

I already have one of his mini quad frames flying as home to my Quadrino board and its proved very sturdy so far, the only change I made when ordering the Rev 8 was to spec it to be used with 1/2 square arms for a couple of reasons. First I have a large supply of 2 foot long pieces of 1/2 inch square alloy already on hand, and second for use as an APV craft I want the arms to be solidly located with no chance of the motors rotating on the arms as they can do with round stock. Here's the frame bits...

The flight controller as mentioned will be my well used Hoverfly Pro board, one of the first off the production line in the fall of last year, and also a source of never ending aggravation at times. Here's its chance to redeem itself, I know some of the problems I was having with it were due to the MK quad frame not being an ideal match for the H/F, if it can't fly well AND work a camera mount in the new frame then I'll admit defeat and retire it in favor of something else...

Motive power will be provided by a set of well broken in Flycam 925 motors powered through a set of also well proven Turnigy Plush 18 amp ESCs and turning a set of Graupner 10 x 5 props top and bottom for the time being. The props may change at a later date, for now I'll go with what I have a lot of, so the Graupners are it.

Other odds and ends being recycled are my original MK Hisight II camera mount, also likely to be replaced with something better should the Y6 prove itself worthy, for now it gets the Hisight because I have it and know what to expect from it. Likewise the same Turnigy 3S 2650 packs that previously powered the H/F quad will once again see duty on the Y6.

The last new bits for the time being are some LEDs I've had sitting around for a while. Since the Y6 configuration will be a new flying experience for me, the plan is to add a full length strip of lights on the underside of the rear boom and some as yet undetermined number of a different color on the outer sides of the front booms to aid with visual orientation at a distance...

So I think I have everything I need to make this happen and it shouldn't take too long as the only soldering that needs to be done is to build a new power harness, the rest of it has already been flown and just needs to be bolted together in the new frame.

Time to start building!

Ken

 

[Droider]

Yeha! Nice one Ken.. What every your end judgment may be.. I am sure you will be pleased with the configuration for general use..

I am really close to uploading pics of my new setup.. I just need to add a little powder to her nose and blusher to her cheeks!

Dave

 

[DucktileMedia]

I have never flown a multi rotor heli yet. But, it seems that one approach is to be minimalistic. I like the Y6 the most assuming it is as stable. Someone on here claimed their quad was more stable than the octo. If this is true then maybe a Y or quad would be better with some really powerful reliable motors instead of a bunch of them. And of course the wide angle lenses most are using would be much better off with the wider FOV the Y offers.

This brings up another topic: Is it better to have fewer motors with more power or more smaller motors? there is an efficiency issue as well. Aren't single rotor helis much more efficient? I may start another thread and start a nice argument about this...something I am very good at.

 

[Droider]

Everyone has opinions.. I can only speak of my experiences with my Y6.. I love it.. that is when its not crashing ito big statues..

I will be posting my rebuild pics soon

Dave

 

[RTRyder]

I think I may need bigger motors before this is over with, the frame is a bit bigger (and heavier) than I anticipated, certainly a fair bit more than the flimsy MK quad frame...

It is a solid piece though, there won't be any question that the frame is strong enough and it won't flex like the previous frame so it should fly well. I'm just not sure 6, 925 KV motors are going to be enough to haul it, two batteries, and a camera mount with camera on it. I think the camera mount and camera are going to be limited to the Hisight with GoPro until more horespower is installed, have to wait and see how the first test flights go...

Ken

 

[Droider]

What the motor span Ken?

Not sure what motors you are using but if they are AXI 2217/20 equivalents there is a guide to flying weight on DW web site.

What you using the bottom and top decks for?

Dave

Dave

 

[ovdt]

Ken,

I was thinking mounting motors directly to the arms would generate less vibration than mounting the motors like yours in the pictures? You have adaptor attached to the arm and motor is mounted on that adaptor.

Can you give some info about this?

 

[rockynz]

I think I may need bigger motors before this is over with, the frame is a bit bigger (and heavier) than I anticipated, certainly a fair bit more than the flimsy MK quad frame...

It is a solid piece though, there won't be any question that the frame is strong enough and it won't flex like the previous frame so it should fly well. I'm just not sure 6, 925 KV motors are going to be enough to haul it, two batteries, and a camera mount with camera on it. I think the camera mount and camera are going to be limited to the Hisight with GoPro until more horespower is installed, have to wait and see how the first test flights go...

Ken

Hi Ken,

could I ask what the weight of your frame is as it is in the last photo of your post? I'm in the middle of a Y6 build using the same motors as you so would be good to compare empty fame weights.

cheers

 

[RTRyder]

What the motor span Ken?

Not sure what motors you are using but if they are AXI 2217/20 equivalents there is a guide to flying weight on DW web site.

What you using the bottom and top decks for?

Dave

Dave

Motor to motor is about 600mm, its bigger than my standard MK Hexa and very close to the same size as the AD-6. I made the arms from the 1/2 inch square stock I have so its easy enough to make adjustments in the length, started with 30 cm mainly because it was half the length of the pieces I have.

Top deck is little more than a cover for the electronics, the dome that was on the MK frame is a bit too wide to fit properly but I might custom order a new one to fit if the Y6 turns out to be a keeper. Bottom deck will serve as a battery tray for now, depending on how things go it might go away along with the landing gear, not really tall enough to fit a decent camera mount underneath the Hisight just fits, barely. It would be easy to adapt the Droidworx landing gear with the AV130 to bolt on though it would most likely need bigger motors for that. No final decisons until its flown and proven itself, it could wind up with MK electronics in it if the H/F board continues to be problematic. I like the frame and could see potentially diassembling the stock Hexa and moving all the good bits over into it.

Ken,

I was thinking mounting motors directly to the arms would generate less vibration than mounting the motors like yours in the pictures? You have adaptor attached to the arm and motor is mounted on that adaptor.

Can you give some info about this?

I think direct mounting would generate more vibration actually and in any case trying to mount a pair of motors top and bottom on undrilled 1/2 inch square aluminum is a PITA at best. I did mount the motors that way on the X8 I built using MK arms and wasn't really happy with the setup. These motor mounts are the ones that came with the frame and they're very solid, the only thing I might do differently is machine a set of standoffs to go between the top and bottom plates to keep the plates square to each other when the the motors are putting out a lot of torque and/or thrust.

Hi Ken,

could I ask what the weight of your frame is as it is in the last photo of your post? I'm in the middle of a Y6 build using the same motors as you so would be good to compare empty fame weights.

cheers

With the main power harness installed but an otherwise empty frame, it weighs in at 858 grams or 1 pound, 14 1/4 ounces.

Now that I have the power run its just a matter of bolting on the motors, tying the ESCs to the arms, bolting the controller board to the standoffs and plugging it all in. I hope to at least get a test flight in later today.

Ken

 

[Bartman]

ken,
I'm not sure I agree with your idea of using a cherry coffee table as a camera mount. it's high weight will certainly keep airframe vibration from reaching the camera but when shooting into a headwind it's going to create an awful lot of lift that I don't think the FC will be able to compensate for. Add to that the high replacement cost of letting your wife go shopping for another table and you can see it's a bad choice. I'd be curious to hear what your thinking was though for trying it in the first place.
Looking forward to your reply,
Bart

 

[Bartman]

What you using the bottom and top decks for?

I believe traditional placements would dictate that pastries go on top and cupcakes on the bottom. You're British! You shouldn't need me to explain the formalities of dessert presentation to you!
Bart "No more coffee for me this morning" C.

 

[RTRyder]

ken,
I'm not sure I agree with your idea of using a cherry coffee table as a camera mount. it's high weight will certainly keep airframe vibration from reaching the camera but when shooting into a headwind it's going to create an awful lot of lift that I don't think the FC will be able to compensate for. Add to that the high replacement cost of letting your wife go shopping for another table and you can see it's a bad choice. I'd be curious to hear what your thinking was though for trying it in the first place.
Looking forward to your reply,
Bart

Yeah, but with the coffee table I can fit ANY camera I want to!

On a more serious note, IT FLYS! Still a lot of details to be cleaned up but I was able to take it out in the backyard and fly it around a bit, so far it seems to be OK with the weight factor though it does seem to have a bit of wobble to it which it did before when the Hoverfly was on an MK frame. Could be a motor/ESC problem considering at least half of the current motors were also on the MK quad frame.

I'll be doing more testing as time permits to try and get to the root of the wobble. So far the frame and configuration seems to be stable and responsive, just need to work the bugs out of it.

Ken

 

[Mactadpole]

It would be easy to adapt the Droidworx landing gear with the AV130 to bolt on though it would most likely need bigger motors for that.
Ken

I would be interested in how you would go about this. I am in the process of doing pretty much the same build (or rebuild of hexa -> Y6) and the 6.5" center plates are just a bit too short for the DW landing gear to attach via their mounting brackets. I was thinking to shift the landing gear towards the rear just a bit so the front could be mounted with their brackets and then somehow making a U-bracket of sorts that would go over the rear arm and fasten to the landing gear brackets.

Excited to see how you make out as I am going to be using the HFP as well. Are you flipping the rear motors so props are counter-rotating on each plane or are you spinning top and bottom same directions?

Good luck,

Shawn

 

[RTRyder]

I would be interested in how you would go about this. I am in the process of doing pretty much the same build (or rebuild of hexa -> Y6) and the 6.5" center plates are just a bit too short for the DW landing gear to attach via their mounting brackets. I was thinking to shift the landing gear towards the rear just a bit so the front could be mounted with their brackets and then somehow making a U-bracket of sorts that would go over the rear arm and fasten to the landing gear brackets.

Excited to see how you make out as I am going to be using the HFP as well. Are you flipping the rear motors so props are counter-rotating on each plane or are you spinning top and bottom same directions?

Good luck,

Shawn

There's a couple ways to go about it, the first being to just slide the mounting brackets in on the gear rails, quick and easy, and no they really don't need to be bolted to the landing gear plates if you use four bolts down through the frame plate instead of just two as I'm doing with mine. Putting a layer of 1/4 sorbothane in between the frame plate and the bracket really does help reduce vibration reaching the camera platform, I can fly a GoPro hard bolted to the platform and get no jello effect now on my MK Hexa.

The other method is a bit more involved, make a new set of brackets to go on the gear rails that will reach teh center plates. Use either aluminum or the standard lexan type material, you can get alloy in various size angle shapes at the local big box hardware supply of choice and usually lexan sheets as well, just have to be careful bending it and not use too much heat.

There is a third maybe less desirable option but it would work, just make a flat plate of either thin aluminum or 2 to 3mm G10 to bridge the distance between the brackets and bolt the frame to that.

So far I've managed to get about a half dozen test flights on the Y6 getting the gain, trim, and props dialed in. Still have that annoying wobble that no amount of gain changes will eliminate completely. Not sure if its something George did recently in the code or a problem developing with the board, or if the motors and/or ESCs are just getting tired and causing the problem, all I know is it didn't do it 6 months ago but it was doing it in the quad frame lately and now on the Y6. If it turns out to be the board I'm going to encase the thing in clear acrylic and turn it into a paperweight, I've had more than enough aggravation from the thing already and I haven't even had it for a year yet.

I've got it all setup according to the Hoverfly manual with the top motors CW and the bottom all CCW, nice yaw and very responsive to the controls with the 11 inch Graupner props on 4S. Tried to run it on a pair of 3S and it wasn't happy, hover was over 1/2 throttle so I upped the power and props and now it's much better. Still not right, but much, much better.

Ken

 

[Mactadpole]

There's a couple ways to go about it, the first being to just slide the mounting brackets in on the gear rails, quick and easy, and no they really don't need to be bolted to the landing gear plates if you use four bolts down through the frame plate instead of just two as I'm doing with mine. Putting a layer of 1/4 sorbothane in between the frame plate and the bracket really does help reduce vibration reaching the camera platform, I can fly a GoPro hard bolted to the platform and get no jello effect now on my MK Hexa.

The other method is a bit more involved, make a new set of brackets to go on the gear rails that will reach teh center plates. Use either aluminum or the standard lexan type material, you can get alloy in various size angle shapes at the local big box hardware supply of choice and usually lexan sheets as well, just have to be careful bending it and not use too much heat.

There is a third maybe less desirable option but it would work, just make a flat plate of either thin aluminum or 2 to 3mm G10 to bridge the distance between the brackets and bolt the frame to that.

So far I've managed to get about a half dozen test flights on the Y6 getting the gain, trim, and props dialed in. Still have that annoying wobble that no amount of gain changes will eliminate completely. Not sure if its something George did recently in the code or a problem developing with the board, or if the motors and/or ESCs are just getting tired and causing the problem, all I know is it didn't do it 6 months ago but it was doing it in the quad frame lately and now on the Y6. If it turns out to be the board I'm going to encase the thing in clear acrylic and turn it into a paperweight, I've had more than enough aggravation from the thing already and I haven't even had it for a year yet.

I've got it all setup according to the Hoverfly manual with the top motors CW and the bottom all CCW, nice yaw and very responsive to the controls with the 11 inch Graupner props on 4S. Tried to run it on a pair of 3S and it wasn't happy, hover was over 1/2 throttle so I upped the power and props and now it's much better. Still not right, but much, much better.

Ken

Hey Ken,

Thanks! I never considered the first option for some reason, but it is certainly the easiest and now that I think about it really shouldn't be an issue when using the four bolts instead of two on each side. That will be my approach if/when I decided to switch the landing gear between frames. I also like the idea of option two but is definitely too much work.

I will let you know how mine goes with the HFP.

Shawn

 

[RTRyder]

Hey Ken,

Thanks! I never considered the first option for some reason, but it is certainly the easiest and now that I think about it really shouldn't be an issue when using the four bolts instead of two on each side. That will be my approach if/when I decided to switch the landing gear between frames. I also like the idea of option two but is definitely too much work.

I will let you know how mine goes with the HFP.

Shawn

Shawn, what motors are you using on your Y6?

I replaced a motor with rough bearings in it last night, first step in trying to rid my Y6 of the wobbles. I was also thinking about replacement motors so I could swing a larger prop and carry more weight should I decide to go that route. Suddenly there doesn't seem to be a lot of choices in the KV range I'd be looking for, at least not for high quality motors. If I'm going to spend that kind of $ I want to be sure its the right motor for the job so I'd like to get some feedback from others that are flying a Y6 on 12 inch props and carrying a camera.

The obvious choice is something along the lines of an Avroto 2814 770kv but cost aside that seems a bit overkill, or is it? Problem is I don't see anything in a smaller form factor than that but larger than the Flycam 925s I already have in the right KV range. Cooling when running in reverse direction and upside down is also a consideration, checking the current motors with a temp gauge after flying a pack I notice the lowers are 10 to 15 degrees hotter than the tops. Everything is well within operating range temperature wise even on 4S with 11 x 5 props, so it looks like it can handle the load so far and will probably be Ok with a Hisight mount and GoPro as well but anything larger than that like the Droidworx landing gear and AV130 is probably going to push it over the top into not enough power and too much heat buildup.

Not ready to spend around $500 for a set of larger motors and new ESC's right now just to be able to fly with the AV130 attached...

Ken

 

[Mactadpole]

Shawn, what motors are you using on your Y6?

Ken

I am using the Pulso 2814/22's that I took off the X8 and going to try APC12x3.8 first on 3s and 4s. Hopefully I'll get to it this weekend and be able to provide more details soon.

On my X8 the bottom motors always run about that much hotter too. If I slow down the bottom motors they don't run quit as hot.

What about the RCTimer 2836 or 3536 as choice?

Shawn

 

[RTRyder]

ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!

No amount of twiddling, fiddling, or parts swapping will make the wobble go away and I'm not about to spend hundreds of $ to replace motors and ESCs just to see if they are all or part of the problem. Likewise I'm not willing to tear down the electronics stack on one of the fully sorted and nicely flying MK Hexa so I can try the Y6 frame and current motors/ESCs with a known good flight controller using an I2C converter board.

Hoverfly Pro goes back on the shelf to gather more dust, again. At some time in the future I may swap in one of the MK controllers to see what's going on and I do eventually want to make this a useful flyable frame, just not going to happen using some or all of the electronics currently on it and replacements aren't in the budget at the moment. Lacking any other suitable flight controller board for a Y6 the project gets shelved for now...

*****************************************
So not being willing to concede defeat without trying every last possibility I make one last go at it figuring I've got nothing to lose and it isn't going to work anyway. Off came the Graupner props and I fished out a set of APC 11 x 4.7 ( or 4.5, or whatever) and bolted them on straight out of the package.

NO WOBBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It flys like it used to way back when it first went into the MK quad frame! Granted it still has some quirks and that's just the nature of the controller board, but nice and smooth and pretty darn stable in the light wind that was driving it bonkers for the last day and a half. Just to make sure I wasn't hallucinating I charged up another pack and went out in front of the house where I have more room to fly around and same thing, no wobbles.

So it comes down to a bunch of things but it looks and sounds like the added blade area of the APC vs Graupner props slowed the motors down just enough to dampen their response to flight controller commands to adjust speed so that the wobble is gone. Had I gone ahead and put larger, lower KV motors on with a 12 inch prop it likely would have accomplished the same thing. I never ever would have believed just changing the props would have fixed the problem if I hadn't seen it myself. Checked the temps after the last pack and they're up about 10 to 15 degrees all around so the motors are working harder but still well within limits, about 115 - 120 F on the motors and around 120 to 125 F on the ESCs.

This brings me to one of my peeves with the H/F board and one of their selling points, there's no configuration to be done other than gain settings. If I had the flexibility of configuration of any of a number of other flight controllers I probably could have tuned it to work with the Graupner props, they are after all the same size with just a pinch more pitch than the APC but the blade profile is very different allowing the motors to speed up much quicker. Oddly my MKs hate the APC and fly quite nicely on Graupner and Xoar props so I guess thats just part of the game with multirotors, some work well with a particular setup and others fly like crap.

Anyway, glad I finally found a use for those APC props that have been gathering dust, now to get on with hanging a camera mount under this thing and see what comes out on the video.

Ken

 

[Stacky]

Its interesting Ken, it all comes down to individual tastes. I love my HFP, love the fact all I have to do is set the gain and it flies beautifully. I have a CC board and I appreciate the fact that I can do all sorts of tuning to it to optimize performance but I really can't be arsed with all that pissing about. I simply want to be able to plug a board in and fly. My primary interest is photography so admittedly I am not a RC type person so when I get my final photography machine worked out my main focus will be trying to get great photographs.
The CC board when tuned flies very well but I really don't want to spend hours messing with settings on the computer. Having to learn about the RC side of things is vital but something I have to grit my teeth and get on with learning about.
Many people want to be able to have full control over the FC settings which i understand and have no problem with but for me I simply want a stable platform that I can plug in and fly. The latest firmware release for the HFP is another step forward for the HF guys, the board is flying fantastically well. I guess it some respects its sort of like PC v Mac. PC 's you have more control over how it runs but then there are more chances for over complication and issues. Mac's you have virtually no control over how it runs but its very simple and less complicated. I work as a photographer, I want my computer purely for processing images, thats it. I don't need a PC type computer.
Thats said i know that PC users with a well set up machine can do everything and more a Mac can but for me the Mac does exactly what I need. Same deal with the HFP. Did I mention how beautifully mine is flying with the latest firmware release?.

 

[Mactadpole]

Well good news! I know you probably are, but are you running the latest firmware on the HFP?

Shawn

Edit: Stacky beat me to it!