Need NAZA Expert
- Thread starter propflux01
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propflux01
Member
Well heck, why not give it a go then... I will try and see how that works.
ChrisRL
Member
Yeah, flux, use your radio in regular PPM mode (old school channel style) for the channel 3- style ESC calibration - I use a different model on the TX side (switched to ACRObatic aircraft model) and then re-bind it to the same RX but operating as above, then calibrate everything, then switch the TX/RX back to s-bus mode to use as you regularly do.
The way these TX/RXs are priced these days, it's worth it to have an older TX/RX lying around for this kind of use, also as a backup, and then eventually as the gimbal/cam operator's setup radio. I just spotted a used Devo 7 and RX107 on the 'bay for around $60, not too shabby for a DSSS radio kit, and lowish but typical pricing these days (I can remember my Hitec Eclipse 7 costing five or six times that amount, back in the day..
The way these TX/RXs are priced these days, it's worth it to have an older TX/RX lying around for this kind of use, also as a backup, and then eventually as the gimbal/cam operator's setup radio. I just spotted a used Devo 7 and RX107 on the 'bay for around $60, not too shabby for a DSSS radio kit, and lowish but typical pricing these days (I can remember my Hitec Eclipse 7 costing five or six times that amount, back in the day..
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propflux01
Member
OK, I calibrated new ESC's using X8R. replaced motors. swapped FC, Swapped GPS, rewired from scratch. This is what I got, same as before:
Worse in manual mode. About the same in atti or GPS. adjusting PRYA % makes no difference. Now I am pissed and wondering WTF... I havew a vewry similar build (alien clone) that does not do this at all.
Worse on 4S. Still shakes on 3S.
Props changed several times.
Worse in manual mode. About the same in atti or GPS. adjusting PRYA % makes no difference. Now I am pissed and wondering WTF... I havew a vewry similar build (alien clone) that does not do this at all.
Worse on 4S. Still shakes on 3S.
Props changed several times.
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ChrisRL
Member
Flux, the internal vibration feels like something might be unbalanced? A prop or a motor mount, maybe?
The wandering around the sky, or imprecise GPS hold, if it is in GPS mode, is probably your Naza-to-GPS puck offset ("GPS Orientation" under the Basic setup tab of your Naza Assistant)) not entered in centimeters, or else maybe your IMU orientation differs more than a degree from your GPS puck orientation?
That's assuming you did your basic and advanced IMU calibrations at least 15ft away from anything metallic, both above and below the ground, and your compass calibration dance with zero metal around (coins, keys, watch, ring, cell phone, spectacles - think TSA metal detector procedure)
So there's where I'd be checking next, and don't worry, at least it is not the air and not trying to fly away or inverted, so you are closer than it feels you are. Do the stick controls and switches all work properly?
Also, any buzzing, vibrating noises? Any overheating of motor or motors? Any genie smoke anywhere?
The wandering around the sky, or imprecise GPS hold, if it is in GPS mode, is probably your Naza-to-GPS puck offset ("GPS Orientation" under the Basic setup tab of your Naza Assistant)) not entered in centimeters, or else maybe your IMU orientation differs more than a degree from your GPS puck orientation?
That's assuming you did your basic and advanced IMU calibrations at least 15ft away from anything metallic, both above and below the ground, and your compass calibration dance with zero metal around (coins, keys, watch, ring, cell phone, spectacles - think TSA metal detector procedure)
So there's where I'd be checking next, and don't worry, at least it is not the air and not trying to fly away or inverted, so you are closer than it feels you are. Do the stick controls and switches all work properly?
Also, any buzzing, vibrating noises? Any overheating of motor or motors? Any genie smoke anywhere?
propflux01
Member
Changed several props and prop styles out. motors replaced with different brand as well, escs replaced. The offset I wasn't too worried about at teh moment, I just wanted to ops check it first before minor tuning. I have only done the advanced IMU, and I am about Danced out, all over my yard, a field nearby, the street and with empty pockets. I have built many drones, from 210's to 1300. with various flight controllers and NEVER had this issue before.
AS for vibs, I cannot feel any, not nothing seems to "flex" or be "wiggly". Motors and ESC's are cool to touch, and no smoke.
AS for vibs, I cannot feel any, not nothing seems to "flex" or be "wiggly". Motors and ESC's are cool to touch, and no smoke.
propflux01
Member
Has no effect... I have several other NAZA -equipped 250's and they fly wonderfully. Cannot seem to get BHeli to connect ( yes, i see the port, but keeps saying not connected). I have these two for Silabs, and one other one fore Atmel. None work except the Atmel one on Atmel ESC's.
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ChrisRL
Member
aha, well I'm not too familiar with mini builds, I have to admit - most of mine have been 55o or above, and all Naza, so I'd tend to agree with farmer, maybe swap out to a Naze or similar and check everything else first, then swap back, and eliminate build factors one by one?
Once you've eliminated them as a possibility, then you're left with questions like:
is this your first build with this particular Naza unit?
Do you have another Naza unit from another drone you can A/B check to see if it's a unit malfunction?
Both of those speak to the drone-as-a-whole-dancing-around-the-sky part of the problem, and not the internal-vibration/oscillation part of the problem, which still reads to me like a Flight-Controller-trying-to-balance-itself problem. You will have double-checked your CGs, of course.
Hmm... quite the conundrum! Going to do a little more thinking. It's not quite toilet-bowling, is it? A longer flight test might reveal more, as long as the instability doesn't get worse. I'm thinking about the internal oscillation first. I've seen quite a bit of the latter floating problem, mostly with other makes like Yiyi, and most of those have resolved down to GPS puck offset issues, or else bad GPS plugs/wiring/earthing/EM interference issues. Nazas don't like being next to EM emitters at all, so check positions of your VTX, PMU, etc., and power wiring, and maybe consider a metal jacket for your Naza as well, I have one incoming from China for one of my builds, which is a 680 size but small in the center plate area.
Oh, another thing - I've not had much success with BLHeli on my builds, most of my ESCs are SimonK. Guess it's my age...
Once you've eliminated them as a possibility, then you're left with questions like:
is this your first build with this particular Naza unit?
Do you have another Naza unit from another drone you can A/B check to see if it's a unit malfunction?
Both of those speak to the drone-as-a-whole-dancing-around-the-sky part of the problem, and not the internal-vibration/oscillation part of the problem, which still reads to me like a Flight-Controller-trying-to-balance-itself problem. You will have double-checked your CGs, of course.
Hmm... quite the conundrum! Going to do a little more thinking. It's not quite toilet-bowling, is it? A longer flight test might reveal more, as long as the instability doesn't get worse. I'm thinking about the internal oscillation first. I've seen quite a bit of the latter floating problem, mostly with other makes like Yiyi, and most of those have resolved down to GPS puck offset issues, or else bad GPS plugs/wiring/earthing/EM interference issues. Nazas don't like being next to EM emitters at all, so check positions of your VTX, PMU, etc., and power wiring, and maybe consider a metal jacket for your Naza as well, I have one incoming from China for one of my builds, which is a 680 size but small in the center plate area.
Oh, another thing - I've not had much success with BLHeli on my builds, most of my ESCs are SimonK. Guess it's my age...
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propflux01
Member
Chris, as I have stated, several NAZA builds, 3 250's. all but this one work wonderfully. This is not first NAZA build. I like them better than the NAZE or CC3D equipped mini's I have. I have swapped to two different NAZA units ( that was what i originally thought it was, bad gyro or something) no, does not toilet bowl at all, just shakes like hell, sometimes will settle for just a second, then other times shake so bad it will shut down and fall to earth. Just so confused ads I have set up several NAZA's and similar setups. Never had this kind of issue.
ChrisRL
Member
So not an individual FC issue, since all your Nazas fly this particular build the same way.
What did you *not* swap out?
Another thought occurs - your airframe rigidity is within spec your powerplants? I just had to swap out a hex frame for a more rigid one to cure camera jello issues, so it was another vibration issue, albeit at a different oscillation frequency.
So perhaps you can observe the vibration as you increase / decrease throttle, see if one affects the other?
Also try running your motors up with props off and drone in hand to see if the vibration source is mechanical or FC dependent?
What did you *not* swap out?
Another thought occurs - your airframe rigidity is within spec your powerplants? I just had to swap out a hex frame for a more rigid one to cure camera jello issues, so it was another vibration issue, albeit at a different oscillation frequency.
So perhaps you can observe the vibration as you increase / decrease throttle, see if one affects the other?
Also try running your motors up with props off and drone in hand to see if the vibration source is mechanical or FC dependent?
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propflux01
Member
The only thing I have not replaced (and getting ready to do that) is the X4R. I am going to swap with another for a hail Mary...
ChrisRL
Member
Yikes!
I'd say that the Rx might possibly be giving the Naza confusing input, and as such that theory would probably be worth a test, since there's nothing left. However if it were the radio then you'd probably be able to feel the vibrations from just the motors spinning (i.e. with no props on).
Your airframe is tested solid and good, with no flex at high throttle?
I'd say that the Rx might possibly be giving the Naza confusing input, and as such that theory would probably be worth a test, since there's nothing left. However if it were the radio then you'd probably be able to feel the vibrations from just the motors spinning (i.e. with no props on).
Your airframe is tested solid and good, with no flex at high throttle?
propflux01
Member
Thta was my thinking.. unfortunately no change. I've held it in my hand at full throttle and it fights me but does not oscillate.
ChrisRL
Member
Okay then, so it's not likely to be mechanical (although the vibration might set in when you put the props back on).
We're down to the FC, the ESCs, maybe the motor(s) and the Rx.
You already eliminated the FC and ESCs, so your X4R is the only thing left (this time around), correct?
As one of my mentors used to say: "Gentlemen, what we have to do, is do this right. Because we either do it right, or we do it again".
We're down to the FC, the ESCs, maybe the motor(s) and the Rx.
You already eliminated the FC and ESCs, so your X4R is the only thing left (this time around), correct?
As one of my mentors used to say: "Gentlemen, what we have to do, is do this right. Because we either do it right, or we do it again".
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propflux01
Member
ChrisRL
Member
flux, good morning.
Well the answer must be here, somewhere in the drone you have in your hand. This is not rocket science, only aeronautics.
I'd tend to pursue the hypothesis that the frames you have may appear identical, but are obviously not identical.
Were I to proceed further into the fault diagnosis I'd actually do an A/B comparison with the closest good drone you have to your problem one, and swap out individual parts until your 'good' drone started vibrating, or your 'bad' drone stopped it.
Not too scientific, I know, but the 'divide and conquer' method's been around awhile, it's fairly quick, and it works.
Well the answer must be here, somewhere in the drone you have in your hand. This is not rocket science, only aeronautics.
I'd tend to pursue the hypothesis that the frames you have may appear identical, but are obviously not identical.
Were I to proceed further into the fault diagnosis I'd actually do an A/B comparison with the closest good drone you have to your problem one, and swap out individual parts until your 'good' drone started vibrating, or your 'bad' drone stopped it.
Not too scientific, I know, but the 'divide and conquer' method's been around awhile, it's fairly quick, and it works.
ChrisRL
Member
flux, a thought.
Some servo lead plugs have tabs on their signal ends, so impossible to plug in the wrong way. However, not all servo leads are identical, and some come without those tabs.
I recall a build where the Rx servo input sockets were designed upside down from the Naza ones, so the lead had to be twisted 180 degrees to get the signal end oriented correctly. Using a servo lead with a tabbed plug, it's impossible to insert the plug the wrong way into either Rx or Naza.
However, in this instance I was using servo leads that had plugs without indexing tabs on them, and during a long and frustrating build, I had them connected the same way (i.e. negative black wires lower into both Rx and Naza, and thus upside down for the Naza) for several iterations of testing until I isolated that problem. Maybe you could do a quick double-check for that?
Some servo lead plugs have tabs on their signal ends, so impossible to plug in the wrong way. However, not all servo leads are identical, and some come without those tabs.
I recall a build where the Rx servo input sockets were designed upside down from the Naza ones, so the lead had to be twisted 180 degrees to get the signal end oriented correctly. Using a servo lead with a tabbed plug, it's impossible to insert the plug the wrong way into either Rx or Naza.
However, in this instance I was using servo leads that had plugs without indexing tabs on them, and during a long and frustrating build, I had them connected the same way (i.e. negative black wires lower into both Rx and Naza, and thus upside down for the Naza) for several iterations of testing until I isolated that problem. Maybe you could do a quick double-check for that?
propflux01
Member
I have went over the wires, they are correct. I am really starting to to think its got to be something in this frame itself. Every electrical part has been changed.
ChrisRL
Member
Agreed, it's the only obvious thing left to check.
Apart from the might-be-visible stress or manufacturing flaws, do check for mis-assembled frame parts (reversed re-inforcement tabs or brackets on struts etc), missing or mis-spec'd fasteners, unglued parts, etc., and also for pliability, especially in plastic parts that may have been manufactured from mis-formulated plastics, so the part itself might look solid (no cracks or faults visible), but actually the very material from which it's been made is weaker or more flexible than it should be.
Apart from the might-be-visible stress or manufacturing flaws, do check for mis-assembled frame parts (reversed re-inforcement tabs or brackets on struts etc), missing or mis-spec'd fasteners, unglued parts, etc., and also for pliability, especially in plastic parts that may have been manufactured from mis-formulated plastics, so the part itself might look solid (no cracks or faults visible), but actually the very material from which it's been made is weaker or more flexible than it should be.
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