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Need NAZA Expert

Discussion in 'Drone Electronics' started by propflux01, Mar 16, 2017.

  1. propflux01

    propflux01 Member

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    Posted by propflux01, Mar 16, 2017 #1
    Hello,
    First posting here, I am sorry it's long-winded, wanted to get away from a larger forum "group" so maybe I can actually get an answer other than "NAZA isn't made for that small a craft" and maybe get a serious answer. I had built a ZMR clone using emax 2208 ll motors running 5" props and..... a NAZA FC. This little 250 was a blast to learn on, and actually worked very well. So after numerous crashes and a beat up looker, I decided to retire it and use the parts on a new (ZMR Clone) frame. Since I decided to save some weight and wires, the only changes made were replacing the 8xr receiver (traditional wired) to an x4r using SBUS, and replaced the little bee ESC's with some DYS BLHeli_S SX30A ESC's. Now since there is no longer a way to calibrate the ESC's, since the X4R doesn't have enough channels (no channel three to plug in for throttle like the X8R does), I went ahead and tested and setup in assistant all that was set before. Problem I have is this is now unflyable. It shakes so bad once it gets off the ground it ends up shutting off and falling to ground. I mapped my pitch and roll to a knob with no effect. I stiffened the frame, replaced the GPS puck, recalibrated 50 times, checked motors, wiring, then even replaced the NAZA itself. Absolutely no change. Now I know this setup works, I flew at least 150 flights on the old one, and it flew good. Only thing i can figure is maybe the ESC change? And when I say shake, it shakes like each of my three-bladed props are missing a blade!! It does this in ALL modes, even manual. I am at wits end trying to figure this out. Does anyone have a suggestion or anything?

    P.S. Just FYI, the shaking is side to side if that makes a difference.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
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  2. Posted by John Doecliff, Mar 16, 2017 #2
    Not a mini quad expert but have you tried it with the props off? have you tried 2 blade props? Have you switched back to the 8ch receiver and tried it? If it works with the 8ch receiver on sbus you could at least eliminate that. I'm just throwing stuff out there. Your probably right on it being the ESC's but I wouldn't know why or how they cause that. If the NAZA worked before and it doesn't now even after replacing the NAZA then that tells me its not the NAZA.
     
  3. propflux01

    propflux01 Member

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    Posted by propflux01, Mar 16, 2017 #3
    Well, I had a spare new one laying around so wasn't anything to swap it just to make sure it wasn't the NAZA. I will try the old RX and see if somehow that changes anything, just all out of ideas!
     
  4. Posted by John Doecliff, Mar 16, 2017 #4
    And just to clarify. Why won't the 4 ch receiver work with the Naza? IIRC you should be able to do it with the bare minimum of 4 ch. I realize you wouldn't have that extra U channel for fail safe or GPS but shouldn't you be able to hook it up that way while you are troubleshooting. It seems to me this is just a process of elimination until you find the problem.
     
  5. RENOV8R

    RENOV8R Member

    Posted by RENOV8R, Mar 16, 2017 #5
    Well, I'm no expert but from doing a few builds that used a Naza-M (since been converted to a Eagle Tree Vector fan) I can tell you whats probably wrong and yes, it's the ESCs. There's nothing wrong with them, but bottom line is that Naza (and Tarot ZYX-M) just don't play nice with any BLHeli-S ESCs.
     
  6. propflux01

    propflux01 Member

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    Posted by propflux01, Mar 16, 2017 #6
    Well, Thats not good, considering BLHeli is overtaking SimonK like a flood.....
     
  7. ChrisRL

    ChrisRL Member

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    Posted by ChrisRL, Mar 17, 2017 #7
    Agreed. I tried BL-Heli ESCs with Naza and no go. Reverted back to SimonK and no problem.
     
  8. RENOV8R

    RENOV8R Member

    Posted by RENOV8R, Mar 17, 2017 #8
    Yes, and they're amazing in most applications, especially when combined with DShot. Unfortunately, DJI hasn't kept up with the times. Someone explained to me that it has something to do with the Naza not being able to process the higher pulse width rate of BLHeli_S. Or something to that effect, I'm not really into the technical side of this hobby. I know a bit about how things work, but not why hahaha. But as Chris said above, I finished a TBS Disco not too long ago with a Naza and Aikon 30A BLHeli_S ESCs and had the same, basically unflyable. Shakes and the throttle response was vey notchy and twitchy (those are actual technical terms) and even calibrating 3 or 4 times, I couldn't get proper range. Switched the Aikons out for T-Motor Air ESCs and it was instantly silky smooth.
     
  9. propflux01

    propflux01 Member

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    Posted by propflux01, Mar 17, 2017 #9
    That's so strange, as I have used the little bee's ESC's without issue. Guess it's search for Simon time!
     
  10. propflux01

    propflux01 Member

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    Posted by propflux01, Mar 17, 2017 #10
    Thank you to everyone that has replied. It is much appreciated, more than I expected.
     
  11. ChrisRL

    ChrisRL Member

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    Posted by ChrisRL, Mar 17, 2017 #11
    Yeah, SimonK ESCs are not so hard to find still online - but a caveat with any of the cheaper Chinese SimonK's - when I was (re)building my hex, I went through maybe eighteen ESCs, six at a time, just to find a set that matched properly.

    Sure, they looked the same on the outside, but cut away the shrink wrapping and - totally different circuit boards, designs, etc., all just thrown together and called a set. I had to just keep on sending them back and getting replacements until I found 8 or 9 that a) had the same color circuit boards b) had the same components mounted to said circuit boards and c) had the same firmware installed - roughly.

    By this time, around six weeks had passed by, and I had bought programmers, readers, chip burners.... all to get one set of SimonK for my hex, because it blew an original one out and the original make and model was discontinued. So yeah, each one may have started out by seeming like a bargain, maybe $8-12 each (so $48 a set of six, cool, right?) but at the end, including all of the tools, testers, shipping costs, endless emails and research, and general frustration time spent? Nudging $300, easy. Yikes.

    But an educational experience, not to be missed. And there, I had it, paid for it, so you can just read about it and not have to go through that yourself. : )

    So, particularly in the case of those cheaper ones, do get matching sets and include a couple spare motors and ESCs for the future, because at some stage, maybe a year or two down the road, one of these, or a motor, might give out - and then you'll be looking for a spare that matches - or else you'll have to find another complete set that matches... sheesh!
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  12. propflux01

    propflux01 Member

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    Posted by propflux01, Mar 17, 2017 #12
    I am sorry to hear you went through so much, but I have had similar experiences with other items. I guess it like gambling. Like I said I have ran little bee's without issue, on 2 mini quads, and even a mini octo running 2208 ll's without issue. I like making odd multirotors, and aside from the lack of finer adjustments, I like the NAZA. While they are not the most advanced, they just plain work usually without complications. One thing I have noticed, they like a heavy vehicle! I don't know of too many mainstream FC that candor what NAZA can do, sans a pixhawk, which you need a computer Science degree to work it!
     
  13. farmernz

    farmernz New Member

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    Posted by farmernz, Mar 18, 2017 #13
    Also a et vector fan here. can you put the old rx on to calibrate the esc's, then change back to x4r? Or flash with simonk?
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  14. propflux01

    propflux01 Member

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    Posted by propflux01, Mar 18, 2017 #14
    I have anX8R available to do this with, but do not know if it will work once I go back to the sbus.
     
  15. ChrisRL

    ChrisRL Member

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    Posted by ChrisRL, Mar 18, 2017 #15
    farmernz, I have a separate calibration rig I use when building, it's basically an erector-set eqivalent of a regular arm battery-bec-esc-motor setup with terminal blocks and alligator clips set up so I can just clip in the ESC/motor rig I'm building, run it up on a receiver (any one will do) and check that the firmware etc is all okay before I build the arm.
    Here's what it looks like:
    IMG_0781 test rig 1.jpg
    Basically two parts, the power part on top (battery plugged in top right, with aux battery JST out for testing other servos, camera gimbals etc), through the white terminal strip (I bought four for a dollar at my local electronics store), to +- alligator clips and also a BEC battery input, in case the ESC is an opto and has no ESC, or in case I've already cut the red wire.

    The bottom takes the business end of the ESC, again three alligator clips into a terminal block, into the motor connections so I can just crimp in the power lines of the motor I'm testing by screwing the ends into the terminal block.

    So a typical ESC & Motor pair test, set up, would look like this. Note that this particular ESC has the red wire / BEC included so the little blue BEC isn't needed in this circuit (and of course nothing is clipped together)

    IMG_0781 test rig 2r.jpg

    But you can see how easy it is to clip in a new ESC, attach a motor to it, calibrate, done.
    I believe Ali Shan Mao has a Youtube video of a rig he built to calibrate/test check several at a time. Me, I'm not so daring!
    Best
    Chris
     
  16. ChrisRL

    ChrisRL Member

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    Posted by ChrisRL, Mar 18, 2017 #16
    propflux, the regular Ch3 (throttle) channel is used to calibrate the ESC. Once you're back to S-BUS, then you're going to use the NAZA assistant software to verify that all your TX signals are ending up the right side up (not reversed) at the correct channels of the RX and thence into your NAZA. That's one of the benefits of working with the Naza and the Assist software - when you plug your RX into the Naza and then turn everything on, including your TX, the Assist program will let you know if your throttle throw on your TX is going to the correct channel, etc., and also your flight modes are set correctly. Again, there's plenty of YouTube videos on how to get this part set up, but it's not too terribly hard to get one's head around at first, and then it gets more and more straightforward the more you do it.

    Of course, the programming of the TX itself can be a bit on the opaque side. That's why radios/TXs like the FrSky are becoming popular, because of OpenTX, which is basically an Assist program for the TX and RX. There's also a pretty low cost Taranis out soon or just now, the white angular X7 or Q X7 one, which is a downscaled version of their X9D that most people use, but for us droners, most of the features (like servo mixing for V tailed aircraft, air brakes, etc) on the X9D aren't really being used, so we only really need the newer Q X7, whatever it's called.

    If you have other TX/RX combos (I used to run the Walkera Devo 7, which I liked, and now run RadioLink and FrSky Taranis for work) then you'll have to decode their manuals and figure out how to program them too. But it's very useful to have the Naza Assist program double check that whatever you did to your TX/RX, that's what the Naza is seeing from the RX, and also what it's going to do with those signals.

    Best
    Chris
     
  17. cootertwo

    cootertwo Member

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    Posted by cootertwo, Mar 18, 2017 #17
    This ought to help you out. It can be confusing, but you'll get it, I did!
     
  18. ChrisRL

    ChrisRL Member

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    Posted by ChrisRL, Mar 18, 2017 #18
    CooterTwo, great stuff!

    What this means is that even though the Naza takes up Channels 1 through 8 (A,E,T,R, X1, X2, Mode switch, as suggested in the video, plus the RTH/panic switch I usually use on Ch 8), if you do get and use a receiver with more channels, you can just go ahead and connect the other servos, lights, landing gear, etc., to the other channels of the receiver out, directly, without going through the S-BUS/Naza, and then program those extra things to all those lovely unused switches and channels on your TX.

    Alternatively, some OpenTX and other radio systems will allow binding to more than one receiver, in which case you can have one 8-channel RX for your basic flight and mode controls, and a second RX for the rest of the goodies. Or, like most pros do, have a totally different second radio system feeding into the drone from another TX and operator, mainly to operate a camera with gimbal controls, zoom, aperture, start-stop, etc.

    I read about / watched a YouTube on a fellow who programmed his drone to beep loudly after 10 seconds of no motion. But he also programmed a switch to turn that beeping off so nobody else could find it before he did, should that event occur. Clever mod. Also useful if you have to change batteries and land it more than 10 seconds away... : )
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  19. cootertwo

    cootertwo Member

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    Posted by cootertwo, Mar 18, 2017 #19
    It can be confusing, especially for my old 67 yr old head, and having some Naza, Naze, and Pixhawk flight controllers. I easily get things mixed up. Was playing with open TX and my Taranis a while ago, and mistakenly lost all my models! Re-setting everything was/is a beech. Still have a few to go!
     
  20. propflux01

    propflux01 Member

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    Posted by propflux01, Mar 18, 2017 #20
    Chris RL:
    I like that idea alot! That is a cool little tester I do know how to use the X8R to cal on channel 3, but what about calibrating on an X4R? it has not "throttle channel" that i am aware of. So, are you suggestion that i use my X8R, bind it, call teh ESC's to it's #3 channel, then just return to using the X4R on SBUS as normal? In the picture is what I built to calibrate ESC's when i exclusively used X8R's. I don't see how I can use it on an X4R while its set to SBUS because SBUS takes up one of the four channels, and no other one is dedicated to the throttle like the X8R's #3 is.
     

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