Gongrats to Aerial MOB and Mr. Kloner......well done

kloner

Aerial DP
anybody thinking there is going to be integration between professional aerial photography and real aircraft without the faa involved is smoking the good stuff......

yes they still send letters..... so far trappy was the only commercial op charged, now that clown in new york is the only amature ever charged by the faa regardles of thousands of letters sent to cease and desist
 

Av8Chuck

Member
I don't think anyone is saying that regulation is a bad thing, well not all bad anyway, but what the first court case pointed out was that the FAA had not gone through the required legal process of defining an RC as an aircraft and therefore did not have the jurisdiction to regulate them.

Only congress can create laws, some government agencies have the authority to create "lawful" regulations, I forgot what the term is for that, like the DMV, FCC and the FAA, however they cannot unilaterally decide what is and isn't legal. An interesting aspect to the first case was the admonishment by the judge for the FAA's overreach in this matter, just because it flies doesn't mean that it automatically falls under the authority of the FAA, which is what they would like us all to believe.

I agree that there needs to be some regulations BUT I'm very critical of how the FAA has gone about creating these regulations and suspect of any trade, labor or PAC that is overtly trying to influence the FAA's NPRM process, that does not make me an anarchist. This is like "Obama Care" you have to sign it into law before you can know what's in it and then you find that most of the major supporters were special interest groups who profit from the law or organizations that opted out or granted exemptions because of their support for the law.

Like the health care issue there is a lot of miss information being disseminated, again all of the information that is being put out there with the intent of trying to influence the outcome of the NPRM should be questioned. As an example, and I am in no way accusing Kloner of anything nefarious, its just an example of what I'm talking about, on the FAA's website they state that they have issued 17 cease and desists and in this article from April 2014 they have it at 12: http://enr.construction.com/technology/construction_technology/2014/0421-65279faa-appeals-drone-ruling-as-use-soars.asp

The cease and desist order that I received is not a letter at all and it did not come in the mail. It is a legal document that was delivered by two men and a Sheriff who identified themselves, showed me their Id and little badges, they had me sign a document acknowledging that I had received and understood the reason for their visit. Although they were very polite they were not there to debate the issue, nor did they pad lock my place of business or take any equipment etc..

Also just because there is no law regarding RC's does not mean its open season for stupid people, whether you flying a MR or swinging a bat there are plenty of laws regarding public safety, chances are that if you read the fine print on the indictment of the guy in NY it is probably based on an already existing public safety law. But I have not seen it so I don't really know.

If one of us can make a living from commercial AP then ALL of us have the right to do the same. Regulations should not be used as a filter which is why the NPRM process exists.

I am not going to allow the lack of government oversight prevent me from moving forward with my business, however, I would not recommend that others do the same, that's a decision you have to make for yourself. I think an important part of that decision is whether you can get insurance so that the MR is simply an insured tool like any other on the premises where your conducting business.

It might be nice if we used this forum to discuss the steps we can take to create our own operating procedures that might help others obtain insurance and mitigate as much risk as possible, not to circumnavigate the FAA but to be better business owners. The FAA will sort itself out on its own timescale.
 
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Av8Chuck

Member
And I'm not sure what #6 has to do with flying RC Helicopters or MR's. I'm a commercially rated pilot and when I started AP I really wanted to use RC Helicopters but I couldn't fly them to save my life! And I have more than 2000 hours of turbine helicopter time.

So I don't see that the skills required to be a pilot are directly applicable to RC flying. Also why would the FAA allow someone to fly commercial operations on a private certificate when it is illegal to do AP commercially on a PPL in a full size acft? This is a very slippery slope and would be too onerous for most operators. Its expensive and usually takes about six months to complete.
 


fltundra

Member
So I don't see that the skills required to be a pilot are directly applicable to RC flying. Also why would the FAA allow someone to fly commercial operations on a private certificate when it is illegal to do AP commercially on a PPL in a full size acft? This is a very slippery slope and would be too onerous for most operators. Its expensive and usually takes about six months to complete.



Here where i am the knowledge i gained going from 15 years RC fixed wing and then to getting my single land and sea ticket and now to VTOL . To fly safely here we have spray planes that can fly anytime at altitudes lower then 400 feet. So before i even think of flying, i go threw all the Notams for my area and check the spray plane schedule to make sure I'm as safe as i can be. You also get a birds eye prospective from above and believe me, I would never want to see someones multi in my windscreen making a decent into an airport. Balloons suspended above businesses below close to the airport used to make me pucker. :tennis:
 
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textilet

Member
And I'm not sure what #6 has to do with flying RC Helicopters or MR's. I'm a commercially rated pilot and when I started AP I really wanted to use RC Helicopters but I couldn't fly them to save my life! And I have more than 2000 hours of turbine helicopter time.

So I don't see that the skills required to be a pilot are directly applicable to RC flying. Also why would the FAA allow someone to fly commercial operations on a private certificate when it is illegal to do AP commercially on a PPL in a full size acft? This is a very slippery slope and would be too onerous for most operators. Its expensive and usually takes about six months to complete.

Indeed. If the FAA approves the exemption it seems likely it will become the de facto requirement for anyone doing commercial AP on any scale. So everyone who doesn't have a private pilots license will find themselves on the wrong side of the only existing rules. Whether those rules will have any more legal weight than the present ones is obviously open to debate.
On a side note I don't think that by any measure this is the intent of the companies seeking the exemption; it may simply be the result.
 

Mojave

Member
And I'm not sure what #6 has to do with flying RC Helicopters or MR's. I'm a commercially rated pilot and when I started AP I really wanted to use RC Helicopters but I couldn't fly them to save my life! And I have more than 2000 hours of turbine helicopter time.

So I don't see that the skills required to be a pilot are directly applicable to RC flying. Also why would the FAA allow someone to fly commercial operations on a private certificate when it is illegal to do AP commercially on a PPL in a full size acft? This is a very slippery slope and would be too onerous for most operators. Its expensive and usually takes about six months to complete.

Does anyone think that it is worth while to have the skills and training to hold a private pilot’s certificate will show the FAA they can have confidence in the commercial operation? From the document (http://www.regulations.gov/contentSt...ontentType=pdf) it also sounds like the pilot will have to coordinate with Flight Standards District Office's and fill out FAA paperwork.
 

Av8Chuck

Member
This exemption is very "Entertainment" specific, the idea that a real estate photographer would be required to fill out FAA paperwork prior to a shoot is unreasonable. Knowing the FAA it is unlikely that if someone needed a "same-day" permission that they would get it. It would be simply adding a lot of expense and paperwork to the process.
 

textilet

Member
Just saw today that the FAA's Facebook page (yes they have one) is asking for comments on these exemptions, and calls them "precedent setting". That's from the Agency itself.

Press release: http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=77985&cid=TW226

Link to comment to the FAA:http://www.regulations.gov/#!searchResults;rpp=25;po=0;s=FAA-2014-0352;fp=true;ns=true

Whatever your opinion, I would encourage people to comment so it's clear that these regulations and any future rules don't get made in a vacuum - people, lots of people care about sensible SUAS rules
 
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R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
The FAA should talk to Transport Canada about whether or not they actually want people submitting paperwork for each and ever UAV flight. Transport Canada has regulations in place now, and are choking on the volume of paperwork being submitted.
 

Av8Chuck

Member
The FAA should talk to Transport Canada about whether or not they actually want people submitting paperwork for each and ever UAV flight. Transport Canada has regulations in place now, and are choking on the volume of paperwork being submitted.

Bureaucracies don't choke on paperwork, they revel in it. The individuals responsible for the day to day implementation of any policy will complain of the unintended consequences of a poorly thought out policy but they also know that their jobs are now secure for at least a couple of decades.


Just saw today that the FAA's Facebook page (yes they have one) is asking for comments on these exemptions, and calls them "precedent setting". That's from the Agency itself.

Press release: http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=77985&cid=TW226

Link to comment to the FAA:http://www.regulations.gov/#!searchResults;rpp=25;po=0;s=FAA-2014-0352;fp=true;ns=true

Whatever your opinion, I would encourage people to comment so it's clear that these regulations and any future rules don't get made in a vacuum - people, lots of people care about sensible SUAS rules

I don't want to sound negative, nor do I want to come off preachy but for many on these forums and people who think they would like to fly AP professionally this is an emotional topic. "WE" need to take a collective breath and separate process from execution.

The first thing that has to happen is that we have to define who "WE" are. Then WE needs to get an attorney to represent us in these negotiations, is there an attorney out there willing to volunteer their time for the cause?

I'm not suggesting that people don't comment, but the more comments made the more it will read like just about any forum on RCGroups. WE, it appears can't agree on anything.

As citizens of the US we have rights and the role of the government is to make sure that, in this case, our ("WE") rights don't interfere with the civil liberties of others and where there might be conflict, that's what the regulations are for. WE shouldn't "tell" [in the form of comments] what we think so that "THEY" can decide the proper coarse of action. WE tell them that we are going to do commercial AP and then THEY have to determine what effect it has on others civil rights.

What effect do you think the comments will have on this process? They will be used as plausible deniability to push their agenda [already existing rules], it will have little, if any effect on the outcome.

WE need to form a political action committee (PAC) which defines our industry (organization), focuses its resources and through its representation secures the future for professional AP.

Obviously this has been suggested before but in every attempt that I can recall the objective was to put forward a cohesive list of concerns to the FAA, as though the list was going to make a difference. It won't! WE need an attorney that can help us form a PAC that will carry some weight at these negotiations otherwise WE are merely spectators.

Here's something we should all think about:

Who do you think are involved with the majority of MR mishaps, hobbyists or professionals? Don't start a debate about what defines a professional, clearly its the hobbyists with the Phantom, whether they get paid for their AP does not define them as a professional. Yet the FAA says that it doesn't care about them, they only want to regulate the professional. Why?

And for all the hobbyists who think this won't effect them, your wrong. Since you can't really define the difference between the two groups by whether they get paid the simple and obvious solution: remove the camera from the quad. You can do flips in your living room all you want but much beyond that you will be treated as a criminal.

This is antithetical to the constitution. The FAA does not get to tell WE [the people] what to do, WE tell them what we are doing and its their job to figure out how to make that happen, not restrict it from us!
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
I'm not so sure that one can state hobbyists have more mishaps than professionals. Maybe in total numbers, but not when you consider the situation statistically (number of incidents per number of commercial flights). From what I can see, way too many "professional" operators have as little understanding on how these systems work as the hobbyists do. Many of them also don't have flight skills. The only real difference between the two groups is how much money they have to spend, and thus how big their machines are.

And yes, a hobbyist getting paid to fly a Phantom is a professional in exactly the same way as a "professional" who's done nothing more than spend $10,000-30,000 on a large airframe with an A2 controller is. Neither really understands how these things work. And also many of them can't fly manually to save their life, let alone somebody else's.

We've all seen hobbyists crash Phantoms. We've also seen "Professionals" with large machines hit skyscrapers, crash them in the Thames, and mercilessly attack patio umbrellas.
 

Av8Chuck

Member
I agree which is why I didn't want to get into defining the term "professional." My point was more about if you really want to make a difference in the regulatory process then you need to do more than make comments on the FAA's website. In terms of that it really doesn't make much difference how you define a professional.

I's be willing to bet that within the next six months, or at least as part of the NPRM process that unless your a "professional" it will be illegal to fly a camera period and that the regulations will be so onerous that few people will be able to afford to be professionals. With one piece of far overreaching regulations the FAA will "regulate" the vast majority of potential small businesses out of business.
 

kloner

Aerial DP
the one thing alot of them have in common is malfunctions of one sort or another, stress takes over and decission making starts sucking. Humans, i tell ya.
 


gtranquilla

RadioActive
Tripoli Rocketry Association (http://www.tripoli.org/Motors/FAARulesforRockets/tabid/181/Default.aspx) has had tremendous clout id dealing with Federal and State regulators. A few years back all HPR activities were nearly obliterated by BATF claiming that rocket propellant was classified as an explosive. It took a few years and considerable money to beat the BATF bulldogs back!!

Unless The RC Multirotor realm has an association with equivalent membership, money and resources, there is significant risk that FAA authorities will have there way.
A representative for MRs should also consult with the executive of Tripoli to gain insight in to how to streamline the process and minimize legal expenses.
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
Well, there's always the AUVSI. This should have been the organization you wanted to work with. But apparently it's run by the big guys, and are working hand in hand with the FAA to lock out small-player operations.
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
I agree which is why I didn't want to get into defining the term "professional." My point was more about if you really want to make a difference in the regulatory process then you need to do more than make comments on the FAA's website. In terms of that it really doesn't make much difference how you define a professional.

I's be willing to bet that within the next six months, or at least as part of the NPRM process that unless your a "professional" it will be illegal to fly a camera period and that the regulations will be so onerous that few people will be able to afford to be professionals. With one piece of far overreaching regulations the FAA will "regulate" the vast majority of potential small businesses out of business.

I would be all for the development of a proper UAV flight school with professional certification. As long as it's reasonable. Training would include airspace theory, radio communications, weather, etc. As well as practical knowledge of UAV control system design and theory. You wouldn't pass unless you knew what HDOP was, what frequency GPS operates on, what AHRS stands for and what are some common systems in use, and common failures thereof. And demonstration of manual piloting skills.
 

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