City Safety??

[SchrodingersCar]

Hi guys,

Apologies in advance if this is a little rambly. I want to try to voice all my concerns.

I've been a video professional for years, which is what led to my interest in AP. I'm pretty new to the scene, having just completed my first f550 about a month ago... and the biggest question that's tearing me up is trying to find a consensus on safety. So I'm hoping to at least start a discussion here about multi rotor "best practices" - especially when it comes to urban environments.

Like I said, I've had this guy built for a month, and it works perfectly (so far), but it's probably only seen a total of 40 minutes in the air so far because I'm overly concerned that I've built a flying lawnmower in the middle of Chicago. I realize I need a TON more practice to get comfortable yadda yadda, but that's not the issue - let's pretend I'm already a seasoned veteran - that doesn't change the fact that these things eventually CRASH.

I hear it constantly repeated to avoid flying near people, or vehicles, or sometimes even homes... yet almost every drone video I see out there (professional and amateur alike) is full of houses, or cars, or even people. I do realize how stupid it is to fly over large crowds etc... but let's be honest, if every responsible flyer had to stay far far away from people, professional aerial shooters would get no work. So I'm assuming there's some sort of happy medium? Do Aerial professionals even agree? I live in a city, (not even close to downtown) and no matter where I try to fly, I'm always surrounded by streets full of cars and sidewalks full of people. I never fly directly over people, but all I do is envision is the copter failing somehow and managing to fly away straight into someone's baby carriage. Yet if I want to get away from population, that means driving for over an hour+ each time. And ultimately I WANT to shoot near people and things happening. I want to get the really cool shots and become a professional aerial videographer... but I want to do it CORRECTLY and SAFELY. No matter how good I get as an operator, there's still the chance of mechanical failure or interference etc. Anyway I'm repeating myself I guess. Confidence in my personal operation skills will come with practice and time and patience. I'm trying to gain confidence in everything ELSE that comes along with drone flying.

Topics of discussion:

1.) Anyone else fly in a city? How/where do you do it? How do you address the risks?

2.) Outside of complete wilderness, is there even such a thing as "safe" multi rotor flying? Am I overthinking it? Do I just need to grow some balls?

 

[Toymaker]

I practice in local soccer fields. they are wide open and don't always have people in them. Check them out in the mornings, they are usually wide open! Mornings are great also because of there being less wind! Lear what you and you Multirotor is capable of in wide open spaces away from every one, this will build your confidence. I started in my tiny back yard with tall wooden fences and that was relatively safe except for the constantly running into inanimate objects that I owned myself. That was a mistake, wide open spaces is the way to go! Stay low, stay close at first to learn how your machine reacts. This will also help keep from attracting any attention. The last thing you want while learning to fly is a group of people hanging around. That's my 2¢..

 

[SchrodingersCar]

Yeah I've been trying to seek out the open spaces, though with the weather being so nice it's a tall order. I'm actually gonna buy a nano quad to practice with in my apartment as well. But skills practice aside, you don't see a lot of "empty soccer field" videos out there. I guess I'm more asking what do people do AFTER they are flying pros, but still want to "follow the rules?"

For example, here's some footage from my first flight with a camera. I don't really go anywhere, because I want to get more comfortable first, but location-wise would this be considered a "stupid, dangerous" shoot?

 

[Paul7060]

I use the local Golf Course. I weight till end of the day and do my flying when last group goes by. I can get 40-45 of flying before sun set. Nice place three foot high split rail fence and I have a whole set of fairway to fly on also the links are on different levels so I can fly down and up hill . I can do a 9hole or 18course for choices on area for flying.

 

[SchrodingersCar]

Let me put it this way: Once I'm skilled enough I'd LOVE to eventually do stuff like this:

http://www.bestquadcopter.com/dji-phantom-quadcopter-flight-in-nyc/

But would the multi rotor community as a whole consider this guy a "reckless *******"?

 

[{}{steve}{}]

Let me put it this way: Once I'm skilled enough I'd LOVE to eventually do stuff like this:

http://www.bestquadcopter.com/dji-phantom-quadcopter-flight-in-nyc/

But would the multi rotor community as a whole consider this guy a "reckless *******"?

I personally would consider any flying over people and/or public streets as being reckless. If you want to film stuff like that then my guess is that you would have to get proper permits with the city and have the areas closed off during filming.

 

[Motopreserve]

I personally would consider any flying over people and/or public streets as being reckless. If you want to film stuff like that then my guess is that you would have to get proper permits with the city and have the areas closed off during filming.

While that video is gorgeous - I would consider that reckless as well. He (or she) is constantly over crowded streets, people and congested areas. I'm pretty sure that NYC as a whole is restricted airspace - so he is also flying illegally, not to mention the safety. The problem with flying in congested cities is that you are unavoidably flying over vulnerable targets. Even the best laid flight plans, by the best pilots, can't account for a blown ESC/motor etc. if that thing goes down - someone could get really hurt.

As previously mentioned, soccer fields and golf courses make for great safe areas. Try checking the AMA website for sanctioned flying fields near Chicago. You'd be surprised where they stick them. Nothing better than flying where you have explicit permission to be. Frees you up to concentrate solely on improving your skills.

 

[llbr22]

Practice. Get a Nano QX, fly it in your living room, practice all orientations. I literally to 'pylon racing' with the 2 chandeliers in my front room.
My front street: littered with power & communications lines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhzCOp1jZ-w&list=UUL9Wv890XmkROudWLEAmERQ&feature=share&index=5

Practice in big areas often, and they keep getting smaller naturally. I still never fly over people's heads, busy roads, and avoid flying over people's property.

 

[SchrodingersCar]

Thanks for all the input guys... I figured the consensus would be as much. There are a few open park options sort of near me, and I absolutely still need to sharpen my flight skills, but I'm just getting soooooo tired of watching all my footage of "grass". In a month I'm hitting the wilderness of the Adirondacks though and I plan on going buck wild. Worst thing that can happen there is I hit a bear.

 

[genesc]

Even with the sharpest skills, flying in a public area could result in disaster if there is mechanical failure and remember murphies law. If it can happen, it will happen.


Gene

 

[B.Welwood]

Multirotor training in the City

I'm just getting started in learning to fly my quad. I believe the most efficient way to learn is to get as much stick time in as possible. This means that flying in the City has some advantages over commuting to a wide open place.
In order to achieve this intensity of practice, I have taken a somewhat different approach to developing some of the basic skill sets required. I am able to fly as often as my charger supplies fresh batteries. My transmitter has 6 hours of flight time on it (flights last 8 to 9 minutes) and I am still on the first set of props.
One nice thing about this is.... as my skills are acquired, the airframe can be jacked up to a higher performance level.
Here is a short video that explains my approach...
http://vimeo.com/98579289

 

[genesc]

I like your thoughts on small battery to start out with. Makes sense. One of the members here "PeeDee" once told me that 5 minutes of battery for a beginner could seem like a lifetime.. But I do get your point about the smaller battery and less power. I found on my first flight that my concentration was on the throttle. It does not take much using a 3300 MAH 3 sell to spin up fast. I think I will switch batteries and reset my kk2 board low battery warning.

Thanks for sharing

Gene

 

[Motopreserve]

While I agree with Pete that 5 minutes can be a lifetime when you're just starting out - I would also suggest that the MR should be operating at the appropriate power level. Not sure if that video was showing intentional low flight, or whether it was due to lack of power (even for that small machine).

If the MR is set up correctly (appropriate weight, battery, motor, props combo), it should be hovering at about 50% and should not exhibit a "scary" amount of power. If 5 minutes feels like a lifetime, just land. No shame in not depleting the battery Better to fly within your comfort zone, including length of flight.

I do commend B Welwood on accepting his limitations and spending the time to learn the craft and skills.

B: if you do have the power to get a little higher off the ground I think you'll appreciate shedding the ground effect that can skew an MRs performance below 3 feet or so.

 

[B.Welwood]

A fresh 2 cell battery pack yields a hover at about 60% throttle, as the pack reaches a depleted state, hover needs 75. The video shows a low level hover, but there is no problem getting to 15 feet or higher. I'm just more comfortable at this stage with keeping it low and close, the flight capabilities definitely exceed my skills at this point. When I get another week of practice under my belt, I'll post another flight video.
I fully understand that this quad will become a different beast with 3 cell power. Hopefully my skills will be sufficiently developed to handle it. I've got a couple of sets of spare props and they will probably be pressed into service.
Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Motopreserve]

You'll have to get the muscle memory retrained to a 50% throttle when you jump to 3S, but that shouldn't take long.

Low and tight is good - but make sure you get some stick time up out of ground effect. Only a few feet can make a world of difference in the handling, and even practicing hover at 3-5 feet (I wouldn't suggest you get real high in that neighborhood) will react more like it will at 50 feet, so you fully understand how the craft handles at all altitudes that are unaffected by the turbulence.

 

[SMP]

Hoping he has PD/PL insurance (yeah right..)

In truth however, you'll notice that most of his moves are short little up and downs. The reality is 90% were actually conservative, well controlled moves, without a lot of obstruction. This is in stark contrast to most city Phantom Vids well over 400" and at the limits of control/video signal ranges. Not advocating, but theres much worse than this cat

 

[Flymagic]

Excuse me, but don't very large aircraft (as in commercial jetliners) and full size helicopters fly over cities and congested areas? You bet they do. I live in NY and see them all the time. Meanwhile, they occasionally fall and people get hurt, but with proper training and good equipment, one minimizes the risk. It is, IMHO, still inherently dangerous to fly over and amongst vulnerable targets.

 

[Motopreserve]

Excuse me, but don't very large aircraft (as in commercial jetliners) and full size helicopters fly over cities and congested areas? You bet they do. I live in NY and see them all the time. Meanwhile, they occasionally fall and people get hurt, but with proper training and good equipment, one minimizes the risk. It is, IMHO, still inherently dangerous to fly over and amongst vulnerable targets.

cant quite tell if you are for/against allowing people to fly over cities - but I think the point being made here is for an untrained pilot to avoid flying over congestion. Until recently I lived in NYC too - and I recall specific, controlled flight patterns being adhered to by trained professional pilots. While near any vulnerable areas, I think we can all agree we would much rather trained pilots do the flying in a controlled manner than another scenario: lets say ME jumping into the cockpit of a full-scale craft, completely untrained, and flying over your head

 

[genesc]

+2 on that one.

Gene

cant quite tell if you are for/against allowing people to fly over cities - but I think the point being made here is for an untrained pilot to avoid flying over congestion. Until recently I lived in NYC too - and I recall specific, controlled flight patterns being adhered to by trained professional pilots. While near any vulnerable areas, I think we can all agree we would much rather trained pilots do the flying in a controlled manner than another scenario: lets say ME jumping into the cockpit of a full-scale craft, completely untrained, and flying over your head

 

[Kilby]

I personally know the photographer that shot this video. He is a friend of mine in NY, and actually a great guy. This was one of his very first videos and he made and didn't realize at the time how dangerous some of those flights were. I can tell you that he took a public caning for this, as well as received a ton of media attention. It was on opposite ends of the spectrum. Other pilots in the community came down on him hard and were brutal in their public comments about the video, yet on the other hand he has been praised for beautiful never seen before imagery from media outlets such as 60 minutes and CNN. He has absolutely learned his lesson and shoots in a much more controlled environment now, and that is really the key to success when it comes to urban shooting.

I live in Baltimore and shoot almost exclusively in an urban setting. Just as I mentioned above, it's all about having as much control over your environment as possible. We typically shoot at 6 am when no one else is around and you get that magic golden light. We also use multiple spotters to keep an eye on not just the aircraft, but anyone from the general public that might wander into the location. They also serve as a buffer should you get the occasional interested neighbor with a thousand questions. We take additional steps like setting up orange cones to section off a designated take off/landing zone, and generally try to set that up on areas not frequented by people anyway. We have been taking these steps for years and actually published a book of our photography last fall. We might be the exception, but people in our area know about us and seem to be very supportive and don't do stupid things when we are flying. I think this has a lot to do with us giving lots of public talks on the topic anyplace that they will have us and helping to educate those in our area about these aircraft. We have even had police that have approached us after seeing the aircraft in the air and offer to act as an additional spotter and keep the public away from us while in flight. Like most things in life, it's all about how you present yourself with others and the steps you take to reduce as much risk as possible. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders, so follow your gut and some recommendations you see here and I'm sure you will find the right path.

Let me put it this way: Once I'm skilled enough I'd LOVE to eventually do stuff like this:

http://www.bestquadcopter.com/dji-phantom-quadcopter-flight-in-nyc/

But would the multi rotor community as a whole consider this guy a "reckless *******"?