Another near miss between helicopter and "drone"


Sigh. Anyone else see this headline? Why oh why does the clueless media keep referring to RC vehicles as drones??


http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/...-And-Helicopter-Rattles-Pilots-267400371.html


And this follow up article.
Alleged 'Near-Collision' Between Drone And Helicopter Caught On Video, But Questions Linger




NBC news in South Florida is reporting what they are describing as a “near-collision” between a drone and a helicopter. The report features an interview with both the pilot of the helicopter and the drone pilot (who also has a commercial pilot’s license). While they refer to the event as a near-collision, the facts end up being far more ambiguous, and the characterization of this as a near-collision takes this story out of the category of straight journalism as the reporters (or editors who chose the headline) are choosing to credit one pilot’s account (the helicopter pilot’s) while disregarding the equally plausible claim of another pilot (the drone operator).
In the story there are very few facts to indicate that the drone and the helicopter nearly collided. In fact, it appears equally likely that the drone pilot upon seeing the helicopter, immediately descended and flew away from the helicopter, and the helicopter pursued the drone. If true that suggests it was the helicopter’s pursuit of the drone that created the hazard. The problem with that narrative of course, is that it doesn’t drive eyeballs — the sizzle sells, and the sizzle news rooms are looking for is “bad drone operator nearly causes deaths.” Forget the fact that by framing the story as they have, NBC portrays the pilot as reckless, he’s just collateral damage in a sensationalist narrative that sells ads.
A drone and a helicopter allegedly came close to colliding in Southern Florida. This photo depicts a common drone known as a DJI Phantom, it weighs approximately 2.2 pounds and is approximately 16 inches in diameter.

The report describes the helicopter pilot’s concerns that the drone and helicopter “were on a collision course.” The pilot states that the drone “went right underneath us” but he does not describe the distance or altitude of either the drone or the helicopter. The drone operator claims to have done his best to “keep his unmanned aircraft out of the helicopter’s flight path” but the helicopter “followed his drone.” The drone pilot said “My objective was to yield the right of way to him as a full sized aircraft and to get back on the ground as quickly and safely as possible. He made that difficult I would say.” Notably, what the NBC report left out of the story is the fact that the helicopter pilot runs a company that does aerial photography and video from helicopters — the exact type of company that is threatened by the emergent use of drones for the same task!

The story as summarized above (minus the ominous narration and video editing) doesn’t sound like a near-collision, it sounds like aircraft making efforts to avoid one another, and pilot’s telling different plausible versions of the same experience.
Beware Sensationalized Stories Of Near-Misses And Other Alleged Drone Harms
As this story develops — and likely becomes more sensationalized as cable and national news outlets pick it up — journalists and commentators should heed my caution about first reports and the perils of drone related journalism. Especially because, as the FAA struggles to regulate these new devices, they will look for reasons to justify one-size fits all regulations. Such regulations are easy to implement, yet do little to address the diversity of drone aircraft (ranging from 1 pound up to 55 pounds) and variety of uses (such as: precision agriculture, journalism, utility inspections, real estate, oil field inspections, and prevention of animal abuse at factory farms just to name a few).
Regulators like the FAA want a simple solution, and reports of “near-misses” by irresponsible users will allow them to cite safety as their reason for grounding most users. But all users are not the same, a realtor’s drone or an agricultural drone or a journalist’s drone (or Amazon’s drone for that matter) all have incentives to behave responsibly. When journalists chase the click-worthy “near-collision” stories we run the risk of prompting laws and regulations that respond to the sensational stories without giving due regard to responsible and beneficial uses of this new technology.
It is highly likely that these types of reports are only going to increase in the next few months. That’s because the FAA recently directed Air Traffic Controllers to report any situation including “any reported or observed unauthorized unmanned aircraft activity or reported or observed unauthorized unmanned aircraft activity or remote controlled model aircraft that deviate from normal practice areas...” A directive like that essentialy asks Air Traffic Controllers to report nearly all reported and observed drone activity.
What that means is that this Miami report (along with others like this NYPD story from last week) will likely be the first of many reports that variously describe “near-collision” and “reported near collisions.” This Cleveland report is emblematic of the type of stories that will become increasingly common:
The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating an incident in which a drone aircraft flew within a short distance of a helicopter in the skies near Cleveland. An FAA spokesman says the pilot of a small Schweizer helicopter reported on July 11 that a red quadricopter got within about 50 yards of his craft while flying at 1,700 feet. The FAA only allows Unmanned Aerial Systems to fly to 400 feet. A quadricopter is a drone with four propellers. The incident occurred about 5 miles northeast of Cleveland.
The FAA recently opened for comment new regulations that seek to place new limits on the use of drones and other model aircraft for recreational purposes. The agency has also been cracking down on the use of drones for commercial purposes. The information gathering directive issued to Air Traffic Controllers is likely intended to allow the FAA to cite to multiple reports of near misses which will allow them to have a factual basis for implementing regulations that restrict the use of drones.

There’s more to most of these stories than allegations of near-misses. Different players with different agendas are shaping these stories. Journalists want sensationalism, the FAA wants a path to simple regulations, anti-drone activists are looking for any angle they can grasp onto to stifle the use of this technology, and drone users want the freedom to build businesses around these aerial robots. The U.S. is already behind other countries in integrating drones into the national airspace, sensational stories increase the risk that we fall further behind.
 

kloner

Aerial DP
the commercial aviation industry is freaking out on these things coming. They all knew it was gonna come, but i think they see it here now. Shame for the politics of an industry to get used in this way.

they use the term "drone" to get it in the news, if they use rc aircraft it never gets picked up and the writters know it
 

Ronan

Member
Maybe we should ban cargo trucks. They take away the business of cargo trains.

Heck ban cargo trucks and cargo trains, lets have everything flown around in cargo planes!
 

Stacky

Member
The news media has it all wrong...... manned helicopter should not be flown at low altitude directly over crowds.....small UAVs would be far safer IMHO.... case in point as follows:

Twilight Zone Movie: The making of the movie had consequences which overshadowed the film itself. During the filming of a segment directed by John Landis on July 23, 1982, actor Vic Morrow and child actors Myca Dinh Le (age 7) and Renee Shin-Yi Chen (age 6) died in an accident involving a helicopter being used on the set. The helicopter was flying at an altitude of only 25 feet (8 meters), too low to avoid the explosions of the pyrotechnics used on set. When the blasts severed the tail rotor, it spun out of control and crashed, decapitating Morrow and Le with its blades. Chen was crushed to death as the helicopter crashed. Everyone inside the helicopter survived sustaining minor injuries.

I find arguments like this to be completely bonkers.
You are using a 30 year old tragic incident as a justification of UAV's flying over crowds as being safer.
Your whole argument here is wrong on so many levels.

Firstly do we really need to have footage from above crowds??. It looks nice but do we really need it?. British tabloids have page 3 girls, do we really need those photos?. They look nice but do we really need them?

Secondly there is quite a massive difference between the standards full size aviation is operating under and what UAV's are operating under. Aircraft are subject to rigorous inspection, design, engineering and manufacture scrutiny, inspection and defined measurable standards. Their components, parts, manufacturing practices and systems are put through extensive testing and development before manufacture and then once manufactured the same applies before they are put on the market.

Thirdly, pilots have to undergo examination both practical and theoretical to be allowed to fly full sized machines. They have to understand and know a set of rules and guidelines that have been built and developed over decades to try to ensure safe flying for pilots, passengers and the general public. Their are just like the roads systems in place that pilots fly to to try and limit the possibility of any incidents.

UAV's however are not subject to any manufacturing, design or engineering scrutiny. There is no independent testing or scrutiny of our type of UAV building, many if not the majority of what we use are built by ourselves. We give them a bit of testing but nothing even remotely close to what full sized aircraft are subject to. The companies which build fully complete systems have not been subject to any sort of independent scrutiny or testing and simply are regulated by market forces and we can see how well that works with DJI products....

As UAV pilots in many countries we dont have to pass any exams be it practical or theoretical. There is nobody assessing us to see if we have safe operating practices. Nobody to scrutinise our maintenance programs to make sure we have any or how frequent or how rigorous those maintenance programs are. There is no performance measurement by independent means of our suitability to operate our UAV's. People in most countries are simply free to buy and fly.

I would put a ton of money on the fact that virtually every single person on these forums who flies UAV's has crashed. In fact the overwhelming vast majority of us have crashed a lot more than just once. How many times do pilots of full sized aircraft crash?. The number of times an individual full sized aircraft pilot crashes would be miniscule compared to our ratios. Considering the number of full size aircraft that operate the number of pilots who have crashed would be a tiny tiny fraction of the numbers who fly.

There is an absolutely massive difference between how full sized aircraft safety standards both engineering wise and operationally operate and how we operate using UAV's

Two wrongs dont make a right but using full sized aircraft to try and justify idiotic practices of UAV operation is just moronic. We arent even worthy of tying the bootlaces of the full sized aircraft industry because we are operating without scrutiny and measurement relative to engineering and operational practices.

Arguments like yours are merely a diversion from the real and practical problems in place.
 

Railrode1

Member
So how much does a buzzard weigh compared to a Phantom? A flock of geese? The point is, in a midair collision, which would be more harmful... I do agree that manned aircraft have the right away but society gets to over reactive. Thank goodness we have laws to collect money form those who break them or else no money would be generated.
 

IM0001

Member
One thing I do wonder, is why in the heck does everyone thing that when they see a drone, it is immediately a super risk of impact? Last I checked most all of the shots of drones "near" an aircraft, are usually always below or far to the side, and at the same time, if the UAV pilot is anywhere near competent, and with the fact that a quad copter is even more maneuverable then a full sized helicopter in regards to 3D space movement, that the actual risk of contact really is far less then the Media is throwing out there.

Of course nobody should be flying these where planes are involved, but Helicopters can fly in areas a normal Quad could as well and that's where more sightings are bound to happen. As long as pilots keep their Choppers above say 400ft unless landing, (Technically they should be above 500ft) and Quads stay below 400ft, then there shouldn't be an incident.

However the Media just looooves to run with this stuff.



Also the argument of flying over people, well there is never really a NEED to do it, but 99% of the time most of the good footage that you actually want to see, is where people are at (because hey, people want to see it, so of course it would be even better from the air), so the risk is "calculated" and you pray for a no failure flight. Even though a lot of quads have crashed, has there really been any major incident considering the number of Phantoms that are flying alone now? It has been amazingly good so far. Not an excuse, but still the truth.

Also I would hope that as the tech progresses, the ability to have redundant and backup systems to keep a quad in the air with an engine/prop/esc or other failure would be possible to help make it even safer.
 

Av8Chuck

Member
British tabloids have page 3 girls, do we really need those photos?. They look nice but do we really need them?

Oh Stacky, that's a trick question isn't it. Of coarse we need page 3 girls! Hell, I don't even know what that is and I want it. Maybe if we had page 3 girls here in the US they'd sell more newspapers...
 

Old Man

Active Member
Page 3 girls on the MR Forum!!!!!!

On a more serious note, there was much in what Stacky posted that I agree with. An operator standardization along with operator flight qualification among them.

To relate a bit to something he also said, I've crashed three really high end UAV's and belly landed another, two splats due to equipment failure and the first being the fault of the student pilot at the time, who was me. We won't mention the number of RC hobby planes I've put in the dirt trying to do the impossible with too little. With both UAV's and hobby aircraft, as experience increased the risk decreased. Flight training with the UAV's likely kept the number of operator error losses to a level far lower than it would have been without such training.
 

Ronan

Member
Page 3 girls on the MR Forum!!!!!!

On a more serious note, there was much in what Stacky posted that I agree with. An operator standardization along with operator flight qualification among them.

To relate a bit to something he also said, I've crashed three really high end UAV's and belly landed another, two splats due to equipment failure and the first being the fault of the student pilot at the time, who was me. We won't mention the number of RC hobby planes I've put in the dirt trying to do the impossible with too little. With both UAV's and hobby aircraft, as experience increased the risk decreased. Flight training with the UAV's likely kept the number of operator error losses to a level far lower than it would have been without such training.

True, but which other country require flight training, and gizmo's in our SUAV's? AFAIK it's pretty straight forward to get certificates in those countries... why make it more complicated for Americans?
 

gtranquilla

RadioActive
Birds are a natural risk that pilots have learned to risk manage to some extent but adding hard objects to the mix only makes it worse and more worrisome for the pilots and passengers.
90% of the fun and money to be made with MR's is probably within 150 feet of the ground so why fly higher? It is just asking for trouble.
Temperature in most seasons often drops rapidly at higher altitudes (lapse rate) and condensation forms on the MR as one approaches cloud base and that is not good either.


So how much does a buzzard weigh compared to a Phantom? A flock of geese? The point is, in a midair collision, which would be more harmful... I do agree that manned aircraft have the right away but society gets to over reactive. Thank goodness we have laws to collect money form those who break them or else no money would be generated.
 

Old Man

Active Member
I think there have been more than enough untrained operators flying mostly automated minirotors that have established the need for training in one form or another. Had the general multirotor population demonstrated some self restraint such actions would not have even had a need for consideration. I was going to say a not had a need for thought but too many actions have proven not too much thought has been going into what some, or many, have been doing. That IS the problem.

I suppose nobody would have ever needed to obtain a driver's license if they had all stayed on their own side of the road and granted right of way once in awhile, but such was not the case. In the beginning, a few made things more difficult for the many. I adamantly believe that anyone that flies something that could be a threat to others needs to receive some kind of training, the least of which is objective reasoning. If flying high enough to conflict with manned aircraft they need to be conversant with the FAR's, and understand their responsibilities as an operator of an aircraft. Not as a pilot because they are not pilot's unless they hold a certificate proving they are.
 

MombasaFlash

Heli's & Tele's bloke
... 90% of the fun and money to be made with MR's is probably within 150 feet of the ground so why fly higher?...

My sentiments precisely. Mile high aerials, particularly with the wide angle lenses that are the norm, become tiresome viewing exceedingly quickly. Similarly, aerial views looking straight down at stuff is just a plain ugly view. Other than those two examples being used for specific reasons, I find the most interesting filming is found in the air space is between ground level and 30-40 meters, with the free-roving, untethered camera replicating dollies and cranes but being able to go much further than they can.
 
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Old Man

Active Member
True, but which other country require flight training, and gizmo's in our SUAV's? AFAIK it's pretty straight forward to get certificates in those countries... why make it more complicated for Americans?

Make it more difficult and only those with deep wells full of money have access to the trade. Make it difficult and those established in full scale aircraft operations have their jobs and operations protected from ingress by less expensive operations. It's all about the money, just as everything is about the money. Those that have it despise the thought of those without it ever having any. Its protectionism, exactly what the government has been providing mega corporations for a long time. It's what one gets when they allow their government to become an oligarchy.

Regulations do not need to be complicated, just comprehensive and sensible. The only reason to make them complicated is to block access.
 

the commercial aviation industry is freaking out on these things coming. They all knew it was gonna come, but i think they see it here now. Shame for the politics of an industry to get used in this way.

they use the term "drone" to get it in the news, if they use rc aircraft it never gets picked up and the writters know it

It's all about "eyeball time". If the byline doesn't capture the attention no one will read it and we all know how important it is to "get the widow on the set".
The media whores are all the same and are not likely to change.
It's incumbent upon us to promote responsibility and safety and work to get positive spins out to the public.
Not sure how you do that when all they want is bad press. Maybe by finding a kidnapped baby or a spotted owl in a snare or a fireman trapped on a roof.
(Please, don't anyone put your baby in a spotted owl snare or on a burning roof but you get my point.)
Fact is unless we are able to demonstrate the positives we'll never get any good press and the FAA is unwilling to bend on the purposeful uses.
Keep up the good fight but it may be time for a new hobby.
 

Make it more difficult and only those with deep wells full of money have access to the trade. Make it difficult and those established in full scale aircraft operations have their jobs and operations protected from ingress by less expensive operations. It's all about the money, just as everything is about the money. Those that have it despise the thought of those without it ever having any. Its protectionism, exactly what the government has been providing mega corporations for a long time. It's what one gets when they allow their government to become an oligarchy.

Regulations do not need to be complicated, just comprehensive and sensible. The only reason to make them complicated is to block access.

'xactly. Spot on.
 

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