New Align 800 cameraship - Needs some work!

Carapau

Tek care, lambs ont road, MRF Moderator
There's a good clip on Helifreak about the 700dfc v a Lambo (the Lambo is totaled during the filming although the crash isnt captured GULP!) and they use a Trex 800 with gimbal for some of the filming. I wasn't looking that hard but it did seem rather shaky and they didn't use that much footage from the 800. Is that telling?
 

MombasaFlash

Heli's & Tele's bloke
... Do you know if the roll axis ring is just a commercial/industrial turntable bearing?...

Apologies for the delay in responding. I am out and about with intermittent internet access.

The roll bearing does look suspiciously like the McCarr item. As for the lack of shock absorbers etc., my belief is that the CW gimbal was designed before HD digital cameras were widely available. Tape based SD cameras are far more forgiving of vibration and do not produce the ghastly jello at the mere suggestion of vibes and furthermore, the SD image was soft enough that any mild HF vibration was not apparent anyway. As such, the gimbal was adequate. Nowadays though, the extremely sharp HD cameras demand that careful attention be paid to vibration elimination and perhaps an extra layer of isolation between airframe and gimbal booms would be advantageous. Most of the previously mentioned mods have been directed at vibration isolation.

As always, finding the balance between soft isolation, to eliminate vibes from reaching the camera plate, and rigidity to prevent the whole thing wallowing is a delicate one.

On such a helicopter you will rarely reach a state whereby everything is settled and no further work is required. IC engines are subject to all sorts of variables that will affect vibration frequencies, which in turn will reduce the effectiveness of specific frequency dampers. It is generally a constant work-in-progress but, if you need to haul around a heavy camera for nearly an hour there are few alternatives.
 

DennyR

Active Member
Rob
As the camera base plate should not be moved at more than 5 deg/sec. with stick inputs, the 250 deg/sec setting is not a problem. I just heard from Alexmos that he is using the highest sensitivity setting on the 6050. But for other reasons it cant have the full theoretical output. It goes without saying that you must suppress all vibrations.

On my full size heli mounts I used 25 deg/sec gyros from Analog Dev. It was also a direct feedback system on roll and pitch.

I have just come out of hospital after a stomach opp. which was not the best start to the year on my 70 th. but I have managed to started shooting the video for the new version 2013 TDR Rowland. Now with Naza H. Part one covers the setting up of a Naza H. Part two shows the shake down test prior to commissioning it. And Part three will blow your mind when you see the new cameras zoom function.

The weather is not helping but I may put up the second part of the three part series in a few hours. Right now I am engrossed in motor windings.
 
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DennyR

Active Member
Ah George you know what I'm like when I get the bug. I cant leave it alone until I have tried it. I would like to play some golf but not in the rain.....
Thanks for the good wishes. I declined the full anesthetic so I could watch it on a monitor. It's not every day that you get to see your insides.
 
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DennyR

Active Member
Needless to say the Nex-7 is only there for the test flight. I have a much better camera now.
You can see how fast the Zenmuse responds to sudden movements.
You can also see why a lens shade is always required when you shoot near the sun and get a blade shadow hitting the front of the lens. GoPro is just stuck on with the standard GoPro angle mount.
 
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Bowley

Member
Have you got a Naza H and a Wookong M for the Zen Denny?
I'm impressed with lack of vibration on there evident by the gopro footage.
 

DennyR

Active Member
Yes the WKM is a stand alone unit just for the gimbal. Naza-H will make helis almost as easy to fly as MR's.

If you know helis it's no problem but if you only know NAZA-M then you need someone who has some experience. But with most Tx like Spektrum just select heli mode and your switches and then go to the Assistant. It is that easy. Tip: make sure your Throttle and Pitch are set to give your lift off and hover close to 50% Throttle value, otherwise Naza will see an out of limits and the RED light wont go out on the test flight. My throttle is set to go no higher than 30% to give the low head speed. You don't need idle up but you do need neg. pitch for autorotation.

Always, Always, set the Hold switch to shut off the throttle.
 
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R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
But...Denny... leave the armatures alone..... this is simpler :)

If you had a Picloc-3X.. I have the firmware to do it like above :)

George, you can't just drop a video with performance like that and not give us more details!

Denny, I know that we don't actually want the gimbal to move faster than 5°/sec, but the reason you need more range than that is because the gyro usually has quite a bit of noise it's measurement (vibration) which is quite a bit more than 5°/sec. If you don't have enough range, you go into "gimbal lock" and the system loses track of it's position.


GoPro is just stuck on with the standard GoPro angle mount.

Yes, I've also had surprising performance from a Contour camera simply clamped to the frame. I wouldn't quite call it "no jello", but it's minimal. You can only see it if you know what you're looking for.


This is what led me to my conclusion that most of the gimbal and vibration damping systems on the market are not designed properly, and cause more problems than they solve.

Here's another video I shot from a quad using a simple, but properly designed vibration damping system. No jello at all.

 
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GeorgeM

Member
Rob... I've been working on DC and BL project for quite a while.... But what you saw in that video clip is not mine....
I just found it among my daily Tube lookaround....( like everyone else, I'm enjoying SimpleBGC new video treats almost daily ;) )

This one caught my attention because the pilot is really willing to give the gimbal a good go on his hexa.... ...and his system is performing really well for the havoc its getting....
 
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DennyR

Active Member
Rob The whole idea of using the 250 deg/sec setting is so that you need less gain and therefor produce less noise. That is because you don't have to amplify the minimal output signal. Saturation is the enemy but it wont saturate until it reaches its FSR. The reason they make them is so that you can use them in the range that they were designed for. As a flight controller with vibration issues then you may want a higher value, But 2000 deg/sec. is for body sports devices etc. Not something that has already been stabilized. It is the inner/outer axis principle.
 
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DennyR

Active Member
Rob... I've been working on DC and BL project for quite a while.... But what you saw in that video clip is not mine....
I just found it among my daily Tube lookaround....( like everyone else, I'm enjoying SimpleBGC new video treats almost daily ;) )

This one caught my attention because the pilot is really willing to give the gimbal a good go on his hexa.... ...and his system is performing really well for the havoc its getting....
George
It sounds like he is using a servo motor but without a gearbox.
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
Rob The whole idea of using the 250 deg/sec setting is so that you need less gain and therefor produce less noise. That is because you don't have to amplify the minimal output signal. Saturation is the enemy but it wont saturate until it reaches its FSR. The reason they make them is so that you can use them in the range that they were designed for. As a flight controller with vibration issues then you may want a higher value, But 2000 deg/sec. is for body sports devices etc. Not something that has already been stabilized. It is the inner/outer axis principle.

Yes, I know why you'd want to use the smallest range possible. As I said, just worried about gimbal lock. But, if this was just a gimbal controller IMU, and it was mounted on the damped camera platform, you could probably run the range you're talking about. I've never tested that before.
 

GeorgeM

Member
No.. He's using DC motors that are found in old cassette decks ( most probably )....as I could see from this:
View attachment 9428


In my project I am using Maxon Coreless DC motors with adequate torque....and the gimbal control is stepless and very locked-on :)
 

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DennyR

Active Member
George
Maxon is what DJI are using but with an encoder. On the web site there are some incredible balancing examples of what they can do. If one looks at Cineflex for example the motors are of the pancake layout which make sense because the more poles you have the better the torque/resolution, as the dia. goes up as well. I think I'll keep rewinding.

Rob
Axis lock is something different to what I think you mean, I would call it saturation. Axis lock is is the loss of one degree of freedom in a three dimensional space that occurs when two of the axis are moved into a parallel position and thus cant move in one direction.
 
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GeorgeM

Member
Denny... Yes... DJI's motors are the EC45's ( brushless 3 phase ) and also with an encoder on the shaft ( not the MILO encoder from Maxon ).
What I'm referring to is a DC motor....yes !! Plus and Minus stuff !!!
 

DennyR

Active Member
George
I know exactly what encoders they use, Don't forget, I have three Zens here.
There are DC motors and DC motors, I know what type I would choose and it would not be those Maxons, they don't have enough torque. That is why the Zen is so sensitive to balance. It is good for low weight cameras and why not. The cameras are converging towards the same goal. smaller, lighter and better. They also have the very small frictional losses of the wipers that conduct the wiring so that it doesn't wind up. The commercial package has to be one that includes the motors and the gyro break out board if you want to sell a package that works. Include a camera that has WiFi! control. IMHO. Notice that I said (works.) A lot of people have been pedaling trash to the Nations that does not work. And doing OK with it. I wont name them but I think you know who they are.
 
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