Coming soon Zenmuse gimbal

jes1111

Active Member
:livid: Crazy Microdrones demo - no payload (to speak of) and let the copter drift all over the place so you don't use up energy correcting it. No doubt it is a very efficient machine but the 1h26 figure is completely bogus in "real life". So is the price! And the payload. And the stability. And the travelling size. And the base station software. :cold:

On the Zenmuse - I'm not that impressed. I thought the whole object of the exercise was to keep the horizon H-O-R-I-Z-O-N-T-A-L! ;)
 

BorisS

Drone Enthusiast
japp the microdrone (fifa referee and also swiss in the still on going days of blatter i wouldn't have chosen someone from that corruption pit , just kidding ! ) put that thing in the wind the way it already wobbles in this video and its not a usable platform anymore at least in this configuration . But concerning the WKM or S 800 up to now i got worse results and so did others with lower Kv motors and bigger props low pitch. This is what they will have to do with 6 kg take off weight to reach 20 mins, doable with the given WKM performance at the moment if you ask me no. Maybe they are going to change the WKM FW tunable setting ESC combo etc once they release the s800 or think that the gimbal will compensate it all. lets see.

this doesnt look to good if you ask me and really makes me wonder if they have any clue what is needed form a AV platform. Why even post a video like that.

S800 in board, if it a fake I apologize: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzM0NTEyMTc2.html

b
ut i would be so happy to be surprised.

Their strength are their Alt hold GPS hold and resulting RTH Failsafe and landing, but these constant marketing statements 24 h support ( never 4 5 emails never answered, cant always be a DNS problem) stable in the wind from the first videos, results in a to strong wobbling bird, mainly concerning big configurations, Counter ESCs ( several don't work still no guidance for what to watch out for, base frequency etc jada jada). All stuff that could have been avoided and people would still be clapping for the strengths it offers.


Boris
 

Droider

Drone Enthusiast
Thats about the worse video I have seen.. I would have had to delete it if it had been posted int 'Show what You filmed' thread as a hoax!

Dave
 


DKTek

Member
On the Zenmuse - I'm not that impressed. I thought the whole object of the exercise was to keep the horizon H-O-R-I-Z-O-N-T-A-L! ;)

The imagery was pretty bad. The isolation and stabilization was better than most....

Keeping a level horizon at all times just isn't gonna happen with a moving platform. Even the professional full scale systems such as the Wescam, Gyron, Spacecam, etc, can NOT hold a level horizon 100% of the time. People base the performance of what we are trying to accomplish on what they see in the movies, ie- THE BEST SHOTS!. The problem is that what you see are set up shots with editing. The REAL difference between gyro ball operators is their ability to keep the horizon level by understanding the systems limitations they are using. Tilting the cam down, when the horizon starts going, is a trick cover up and a lot of shots have been saved by operators who know the systems well enough to predict it. Most movie aerials are big, slow, beauty shots with minimum dynamic moves. Producing a level shot while panning with the aircraft turning is a tough one. Not to say that the operator can't dial in the shot but that means it'll have to be redialed for the typical shots. NOT a perfect system.

The worst operators are the guys who don't know the systems. They go out with a normal operating system and come back with the gimbal dutch-ed saying that it's broken. That is why most systems have a list of qualified operator/technicians. All of the big game systems have user adjustments that can upset the gimbals if not used correctly.

Anyone know what the longest aerial single shot used in a movie?
 

tstrike

pendejo grande
Anyone know what the longest aerial single shot used in a movie?
Was it the opening shot to The Sound of Music? I've seen DP's come unglued at the Libra tech because he can't keep the horizon level on a thirty foot arm strapped in the back of a stakebed when we're running down a wash board dirt road .
 


MombasaFlash

Heli's & Tele's bloke
...Keeping a level horizon at all times just isn't gonna happen with a moving platform...

Perhaps you have not seen any of the BBC's Planet Earth/Life/Frozen Planet series with David Attenborough. They are an object lesson in innovative and downright unbelievable filming techniques and, more often than not, all achieved under the most appalling conditions. Of course much use is made of Cineflex or similar helicopter based footage and shots such as that where, from a perhaps 800 - 1000 meters altitude, there is nothing to see other than a huge expanse of white Antarctic ice and in one long - very long - unbroken shot a small black dot slowly becomes visible, steadily getting larger as the helicopter gets closer. As the helicopter descends it sweeps around the increasingly larger black dot in a nearly full circle spiral pattern, coming to a stationary hover a few feet off the ground, about twenty to thirty meters from what is now identifiable as a single, lone seal. The whole single unbroken, no cutaways sequence must have been a good four minutes. (Well, probably two but it seemed like it went for ages).

This sort of mind-blowing aerial camera control where the video looks like it has been taken from a camera mounted on a ginormous crane, with nary a shimmer nor shake, displays categorically that you can indeed keep a level horizon with a moving platform.

As for the crappy Microdrone video I am surprised at the vitriol it has evoked. I simply take it as an endurance test and with or without camera or corrective flight maneuvers, 188 minutes is a bloody good flight time. Pisses over the 6 - 15 that we have to accept.
 
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walter

New Member
Technical Spec
1: Diagonal axis length: 800mm.
2: Takeoff Weight: 6kg.
3: Load Weight: 2kg.
4: Flight time with 1.2kg payload: 20 minutes.


S800 in board, if it a fake I apologize: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzM0NTEyMTc2.html
Boris

If it is not a fake :
The S800 with frame, motors (etc... ) weights 3,1 kg.
So with 6kg, let us imagine They take the landing gear and 2,5 kg of LIPO (and then we have the 6 kg take off weight).
The frame has a diameter of 800 mm. So the propellers are 13".
I put all of this in ecalc : For the LIPO I choose 3 nanotech 6S 6000 (2,7 kg). Put 7200 g weight (6000 +1,2kg ). I get 12 minutes.

Did they managed to change gravity constant :)
 

The dishonesty of DJI since the beggining has me doubt any and all "untouched" footage they deliver. If this is the best they can make the zencrap gimbal perform I am sure in real use it will be twice as bad.
DJI products are toys and should be regarded as such. David Attenborough and Chadden Hunter are safe, at least from DJI.
 
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DennyR

Active Member
The imagery was pretty bad. The isolation and stabilization was better than most....

Keeping a level horizon at all times just isn't gonna happen with a moving platform. Even the professional full scale systems such as the Wescam, Gyron, Spacecam, etc, can NOT hold a level horizon 100% of the time. People base the performance of what we are trying to accomplish on what they see in the movies, ie- THE BEST SHOTS!. The problem is that what you see are set up shots with editing. The REAL difference between gyro ball operators is their ability to keep the horizon level by understanding the systems limitations they are using. Tilting the cam down, when the horizon starts going, is a trick cover up and a lot of shots have been saved by operators who know the systems well enough to predict it. Most movie aerials are big, slow, beauty shots with minimum dynamic moves. Producing a level shot while panning with the aircraft turning is a tough one. Not to say that the operator can't dial in the shot but that means it'll have to be redialed for the typical shots. NOT a perfect system.

The worst operators are the guys who don't know the systems. They go out with a normal operating system and come back with the gimbal dutch-ed saying that it's broken. That is why most systems have a list of qualified operator/technicians. All of the big game systems have user adjustments that can upset the gimbals if not used correctly.

Anyone know what the longest aerial single shot used in a movie?

I don't know what the longest is but even with Cineflex (which holds a perfect horizon all of the time and can use 72 x zoom) most directors/editors will cut more that 10 seconds to a different angle even if they come back to the continuation. Panning on the outside of a turn is a definite no no unless done very slowly. Sideways tracking is also a no no unless you are tracking a moving subject close in. The rotational is the shot of choice. When bring the shot up to reveal the horizon a good operator will start in reverse so as when the horizon comes up again he knows it's level. If I am shooting an air chase I often turn off the roll stab to show the banking.
 
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BorisS

Drone Enthusiast
The dishonesty of DJI since the beggining has me doubt any and all "untouched" footage they deliver. If this is the best they can make the zencrap gimbal perform I am sure in real use it will be twice as bad.
DJI products are toys and should be regarded as such. David Attenborough and Chadden Hunter are safe, at least from DJI.

Toys a little harsh since its a young FC and it beat the main player in alt hold and gps hold from day one. The arrogance of MK to speak of the WKM as a cheap China thing also makes me shake my head since we are back to the good old bias approach stuff from china must be crap instead of acknowledging some of the strengths and taking those as a bench mark. If one remembers the pathetic MK tries to match the auto-landing/failsafe feature from the WKM and still not be wiling to acknowledge damn some if their stuff beats us we better get our heads together, i also don't have that much trust in MK either.

Dishonest or terrible marketing, to the point of hurting the own brand I cant argument against any more and actually never did. Too much huffing and puffing from their side without delivering and a gradual trend that every new demo video is not as good as the first ones released. If you watch the trend of whats going on in the main RC groups thread about WKM, the main questions are how do i set failsafe on my TX or how to i increase GPS lock down time, which makes me wonder, since the real pounding question should be how do I get the WKM stable on a bigger setup in the slightest wind. So they seem to have found a customer niche or bigger sector were the question doesn't even come up.

I totally respect Denny´s approach that the most WKM setups are bound to fail do to their prop size and the questionable approach bigger the more stable. But than again i dont understand DJIs S800 approach with 13 " props and eventually their only chance to get anywhere close to 20min flight time would be low Kv motors which again is following a different approach.

Boris
 

DennyR

Active Member
Actually Boris I'm using 600 Kv motors. and I may have to use cut down 14x4.7 APC's to 10.75 dia. due to manufacturing costs of carbon autoclaved ones. Nobody would pay 100 euro each for props. no matter how good they are. DJI's props look to be very light at the tip so no problem there at 13" I would suspect. My only doubt about DJI's new hexa is the size of it and the dihederal motor offset. I expect that they will make a provision in WKM to dial in the gyro settings to suit it. My last quad was a monster with DJI and it flew well except in high winds. Talking of which I did some high wind testing with the new F1 in yesterdays gale. Took of ok and then with full forward pitch it could not hold against the wind and got blown backwards 50 meters. cartwheeled a few times on landing but nothing broke so I'm happy to report it is very strong. Those shrouds saved some very expensive blades.
 

BorisS

Drone Enthusiast
Actually Boris I'm using 600 Kv motors. and I may have to use cut down 14x4.7 APC's to 10.75 dia. due to manufacturing costs of carbon autoclaved ones. Nobody would pay 100 euro each for props. no matter how good they are. DJI's props look to be very light at the tip so no problem there at 13" I would suspect. My only doubt about DJI's new hexa is the size of it and the dihederal motor offset. I expect that they will make a provision in WKM to dial in the gyro settings to suit it. My last quad was a monster with DJI and it flew well except in high winds. Talking of which I did some high wind testing with the new F1 in yesterdays gale. Took of ok and then with full forward pitch it could not hold against the wind and got blown backwards 50 meters. cartwheeled a few times on landing but nothing broke so I'm happy to report it is very strong. Those shrouds saved some very expensive blades.

Ah okay the lower Kv on the motors was something i didn't pick up yet or stored concerning your approach. I also think that there will be some changes coming to the WKM FW once we see the release of the S800. Looking at the video before posted of the S800 flying with the hard mounted Gopro it has to be that way. At the same time I hope though that they are thinking of some strategy to open up some more tuning possibilities for different frame/motor/prop setups. In my eyes that would be the next mistake and make several customers switch FCs again, if they start tuning the WKM only for their frames and leave the other customers with expensive frame setup hanging.
 

DennyR

Active Member
Most FC's can deliver pretty good results when you use a 450 flamewheel with 8x4 props and 1100Kv motors and keep it light. It is all about response time. When you start to get too big the response loop lags behind. The 42 USD FreeFlight board is awesome in a small frame.
 
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yeehaanow

Member
One of the longest shots I've seen from RC is Flying Cam's shot at the beginning of Daft Punk's Elektrochroma. Amazing shot that goes on for at least 5 min.

Do we really know what kind of test this was on the latest zenmuse video? I don't think the result should be taken too seriously seeing as how much vibration there was.
 

BorisS

Drone Enthusiast
japp agree we don't know what king of test is was but i really question though that they push out a test not to its max performance video considering all the discussion thats going on around the gimbal. Like said i am impressed by the vibration jitters wobbles that get compensated, and couldn't point out any other gimbal IMU combo that can do the same out in the market out of the box. But would have been such a simple one to drop a couple lines from DJI to explain the video and not dodge right away again.
 

DKTek

Member
LOL, OK guys...

It was shot by Ron Goodman in 'Professione: reporter/The Passenger", 1973.

Here's a link for the people that I typically work with, written by Stan McClain. http://legendofpanchobarnes.com/film/about-the-film/history-of-aerial-cinematography.html

Lots of history here, good and bad. Enjoy!




Guys, remember that traveling forward in a steady state is a no brainer for the horizon. Mr. Goodman shot that 8 minute peice back in 1973 with a modified Wescam, his mods.

 

Wow, would have never gotten that one. Fascinating stuff in that link- thanks for passing it along. The history is much longer than I knew and it's incredible to see how far things have come.

You guys criticizing the stabilization on that gasser are funny. Have you ever built, maintained or flown any gas powered RC helicopters? I can't even imagine ever using one for any kind of aerial cinematography. The machines have an inherent vibration at all times, typically significant- no matter the level of tuning and balancing. Lot's of harmonics. This fact alone is why the vast majority of conventional RC helicopters used for AC are either electric or turbine. Vibrations are reduced by an order of magnitude. So, I give a lot of kudos to DJI for mounting the gimbal on that $hitty gasser and showing what it can do. The jerky camera pans and tilts are terrible but the overall stabilization given that platform is impressive, period. Those sensors were subjected to a worst case scenario in terms of baseline vibrations and if they performed that well in that environment it might be a hell of a system on something like a multi rotor. I have no intention of buying that gimbal. It's too small for the cameras I need. But that demo really impressed me. It's not trivial if you understand that kind of helicopter.

Toys a little harsh since its a young FC and it beat the main player in alt hold and gps hold from day one. The arrogance of MK to speak of the WKM as a cheap China thing also makes me shake my head since we are back to the good old bias approach stuff from china must be crap instead of acknowledging some of the strengths and taking those as a bench mark. If one remembers the pathetic MK tries to match the auto-landing/failsafe feature from the WKM and still not be wiling to acknowledge damn some if their stuff beats us we better get our heads together, i also don't have that much trust in MK either.

There is a lot of crap from China. And many German manufacturers are very arrogant. Certainly a lot of high end, precision equipment has come out of Germany for decades and everyone knows that. 70% of the equipment I use for work is from Germany because it is the de facto standard in the industry and it works consistently and reliably. Many times I have sent feedback to engineers back in Germany who resisted ideas for improvements. They incorporate them eventually but it's slow and frustrating and I think it stems from the arrogance that the product was designed right to begin with and your 'improvements' are not needed. Very painful. It seems similar with MK. But, conversely, Holger is not an idiot and he sees what's going on and I think the forthcoming firmware from them will bring parity or close to what DJI has. This kind of competition is good for everyone. :)

As for the Cineflex, there is no doubt that the stabilization is the very best available but I think the same integration with the Sony optical block that allows for such a tight, integrated system might also become its biggest limitation. Directors and DP's I work with don't want to be limited to the Sony sensor as nice as it is. The irony here is that if the ever increasingly smaller HD cameras continue to improve their sensors and image quality we could really bring something to the party using RC with a truly good stabilizer.

nick
 

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