Can this really be true?
- Thread starter adanac
- Start date
Bison52
Member
Every once in a while, somebody will see me flying and ask what my rig costs. I'm not really inclined to tell them but the truth is, if there's X dollars in the air, there's probably X dollars back home that it took to get it there.
Like any business or expensive hobby, it's the minutia that can eat you up. The batteries and charger, and oh yeah, the connectors that you need cause the ones on the battery aren't the ones you use and the ones you use aren't the ones that came with the charger so you need to make a new cable. And you need a good soldering iron cause the cheapy you tried to get by with won't do the job.
And so on, you get the idea.
Like any business or expensive hobby, it's the minutia that can eat you up. The batteries and charger, and oh yeah, the connectors that you need cause the ones on the battery aren't the ones you use and the ones you use aren't the ones that came with the charger so you need to make a new cable. And you need a good soldering iron cause the cheapy you tried to get by with won't do the job.
And so on, you get the idea.
S800 is an amazing rig, but I have been hearing so many things about support for that product, and not getting any. If you are a professional, then you need to act professional and when something happens you need to be able to fix in a hurry. So although the Zenmuse is an amazing unit I would take a Servo based gimbal anyday for payload and ease of setup. Tuning well thats up to how much time you got into it, but I will say this is not fun, and is the part that is the Job, theres no getting around it. Just like a photographer goes to school to learn photography, We go to Multi school and learn the ropes, the only differance is that when you take a shot from the ground your realtively safe, but in the air well thats another story. This seperates people in the hobby and the pros.
Learn to build get to know your community, and move next to an Expert like Bartman....
Just kidding, but Bartman is there a house for sale next to you????
Learn to build get to know your community, and move next to an Expert like Bartman....
Just kidding, but Bartman is there a house for sale next to you????
redridinghood
Member
Maybe the dealer was telling the truth. After all the S800 is just a plastic vibrating hexa that DJI aimed for inexperienced users.
With a 8k budget your are looking at a Flexa Kratos + Zen 15 + GH3 (secraft adapter plate) and in my mind that's the best for 2012-2013.
With a smaller badged one of the many cf frames with tiger motors and esc's with a Zen15 will provide 90% the footage of the expensive platform granted you know what you are doing.
With a 8k budget your are looking at a Flexa Kratos + Zen 15 + GH3 (secraft adapter plate) and in my mind that's the best for 2012-2013.
With a smaller badged one of the many cf frames with tiger motors and esc's with a Zen15 will provide 90% the footage of the expensive platform granted you know what you are doing.
redridinghood
Member
Man I just was curious about that Kratos thing. It's a whooping 3,221.00 US. Airframe only and if you have to ask you can't afford it. Wow... That's some serious coin, now you add motors let's say Tiger 2826 cheap motors 8 700 dollars= 4021 US, now we need a flight controller let's say 1000, speed controllers let's say 600 at the cheapest for minor heavy lift kopter probably Maytechs or whatever. So that bring us to 5521 now you need a zenmuse 3500, and we need a remote for that the cheapest dx6 might work for a 100, we also need a downlink 5.8=200, monitor 100, batteries let's say 200, landing skid, I wouldn't know what would fit they have the Cinestar in the picture that cost 1500. So right here we are probably looking around 11,221 give or take, and that's just for big stuff. Now comes assembly.
So for a pretty Sad Kratos your going to pay in the neighborhood of 12,000 dollars I would say
So for a pretty Sad Kratos your going to pay in the neighborhood of 12,000 dollars I would say
I think as a director/cameraman coming into this area of work one thing has to be remembered. There is nothing hit and miss about shooting professional video. You are asked for something and you shoot it, exposed,framed, focussed as requested no problems. Aerial shooting must be the same, so there must be a consistent product from services requested without excuses. There is no room for rubbish unless the director wants the equivalent of reality hand held crap. This I think is where the higher priced machines come in - well set up perfection. The Zenmuse on a more solid platform with a GH3 (sharper than a 5D) recording 72mbits should be the minimum to aim at in my opinion. A cameraman friend of mine makes a living shooting on a 5D but thinks it is the crappiest camera going for waving around hand held and aerial work surely is the equivalent of continuously waving the camera around. I am sure other cheaper brushless offerings will come and will be great if they can meet the Zenmuse high standards every time.
Kilby
Active Member
Famous last words before destroying you 8k investment and camera.
Here's what I don't understand, then. If it requires $8K to get stable footage, is everything below $8K just for flying/hobby fun? I'm not criticizing fun. I like fun. But if I'm just going to have fun I can get a Phantom for $679. If a $679 Phantom and a $6500 something-else produce the same, non-usable footage, why spend $6500 or $5K or $3K for AV? Are people putting cameras on their $5K rigs just add to another dimension to the hobby, because consensus seems to be that the footage from that $5K rig can't be used for anything except Youtube videos of your neighborhood.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bartman
Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
Hi neighbor,
what they're saying is that aerial video doesn't come in a box. the equipment, even if you didn't have a limited budget, is only part of the equation. if you can't fly, fix, tweak, dissect and solve problems, etc. then it's going to be a while before the long smooth video shots start happening.
what they aren't telling you is that if you can process and edit video you'll be able to get a lot of useable video (short clips within the hours of video you might shoot) but it'll be up to you to find a place for it in your productions. as you get the equipment more dialed in, your useable clips will be longer, smoother, and more like what you intended for the shot. you'll also need fewer takes to get the shot the way you intended.
but this doesn't come in the box like people expect it to.
Thank you for that. As a camera operator, I can say that for me, at least, you're rolling a lot and hope and only a little is usable (for various reasons depending on the genre).
Some people, including the dealer I spoke to, have not offered a nuanced opinion like yours. They say no flyer of any skill level can obtain usable footage for less than $8K. As a new user here, it's hard for me to know who to listen to. Pretty much everyone is more experienced than me!
So, the hard part from me apart from deciding who to listen to is deciding what platform will be the best for me and my goals, which are stable footage with a GH2.
Some people, including the dealer I spoke to, have not offered a nuanced opinion like yours. They say no flyer of any skill level can obtain usable footage for less than $8K. As a new user here, it's hard for me to know who to listen to. Pretty much everyone is more experienced than me!
So, the hard part from me apart from deciding who to listen to is deciding what platform will be the best for me and my goals, which are stable footage with a GH2.
araines2750
Hexa Crazy
Adanac,
I do not have any idea as to what/ if any experience you have with aerial platforms, but here is my advice.
Take Bart or any other experienced user up on an offer to see their equipment, assist in aerial video on their rig, mirror & learn the electronics & mechanics of a Multi-Rotor.
Go to RC air fields, Fun Flys & FPV events to see what is offered & being flown effectively.
As many have said here, obtaining a rig that meets your needs on the 1st try is likely impossible. Everyone I know in this "crazy" hobby have spent $$ several times on different this & that...over & over.
To make things even more complicated, technology is advancing so quickly that what you buy today will be second best in 6 months to a year.
To say it all in a short....."this hobby / business is a continual investment of time, money & effort".
Additionally, I am a STRONG advocate of building what your are going to fly. The users of these aircraft need to understand how they are assembled, disassembled, repaired & upgraded. Buying a pre-built RTF unit usually leads to a crash with a total or significant loss of the invested $$ or paying big $$ to have someone repair & retune the aircraft. Tinkering with & learning mechanical & electronics is Part of the ownership of an aerial platform/ multicopter.
I hope this is of some help to you. This has been my experience. In this hobby since 1974.
Andrew
I do not have any idea as to what/ if any experience you have with aerial platforms, but here is my advice.
Take Bart or any other experienced user up on an offer to see their equipment, assist in aerial video on their rig, mirror & learn the electronics & mechanics of a Multi-Rotor.
Go to RC air fields, Fun Flys & FPV events to see what is offered & being flown effectively.
As many have said here, obtaining a rig that meets your needs on the 1st try is likely impossible. Everyone I know in this "crazy" hobby have spent $$ several times on different this & that...over & over.
To make things even more complicated, technology is advancing so quickly that what you buy today will be second best in 6 months to a year.
To say it all in a short....."this hobby / business is a continual investment of time, money & effort".
Additionally, I am a STRONG advocate of building what your are going to fly. The users of these aircraft need to understand how they are assembled, disassembled, repaired & upgraded. Buying a pre-built RTF unit usually leads to a crash with a total or significant loss of the invested $$ or paying big $$ to have someone repair & retune the aircraft. Tinkering with & learning mechanical & electronics is Part of the ownership of an aerial platform/ multicopter.
I hope this is of some help to you. This has been my experience. In this hobby since 1974.
Andrew
kloner
Aerial DP
I would go fly as barts ghost rider and get a feeling for what the gear is and does. This is like a boat, best boat i ever had was my best friends,,,, it's like that.
seriously if the difference in money at all makes a difference, your better off hiring an aerial crew or get on one. a one man anything just aint the same as in pro footge and will lead to alot of stress, headaches and lost revenue
Form the money he's talking he is shopping for RTF rigs..... a rtf kratos with all the majic to make a zen ride is gonna be alot of money
seriously if the difference in money at all makes a difference, your better off hiring an aerial crew or get on one. a one man anything just aint the same as in pro footge and will lead to alot of stress, headaches and lost revenue
Form the money he's talking he is shopping for RTF rigs..... a rtf kratos with all the majic to make a zen ride is gonna be alot of money
Andrew and Tstrike, thank you. I am definitely going to accept Bart's offer. I'd be crazy not to. Hopefully, my own camera experience will be useful to him so he also gets something out it.
I have never asserted that there is an out of the box solution or that it won't take time, money and work. That said, you can understand my desire not to spend money on something that absolutely cannot, inherently, carry a camera and get stable footage at least part of the time. Such a rig would only be useful for flying practice, correct?, and I can spend $679, not $4K to practice. But if I can, then I can practice with it and, over time, get footage that builds my reel and gets me work and, eventually, an upgrade.
So, if the $4K-$6K I can spend cannot get me a very good rig, then I'll spend less for an intermediate rig/gimbal that I can build myself with forward-looking components. The question is what that might be.
I have never asserted that there is an out of the box solution or that it won't take time, money and work. That said, you can understand my desire not to spend money on something that absolutely cannot, inherently, carry a camera and get stable footage at least part of the time. Such a rig would only be useful for flying practice, correct?, and I can spend $679, not $4K to practice. But if I can, then I can practice with it and, over time, get footage that builds my reel and gets me work and, eventually, an upgrade.
So, if the $4K-$6K I can spend cannot get me a very good rig, then I'll spend less for an intermediate rig/gimbal that I can build myself with forward-looking components. The question is what that might be.
olof
Osprey
Here are some answers to adanac PM, I put them here, others may find this interesting.
1) Does the Naza or WKM not help with stability? My understanding was that it "assists" with some flight parameters.
Yes they do, GPS mode helps you fight the wind the MR stays where you put it.
Atti mode makes the MR hold altitude and when sticks are centered the MR is level, but it will drift with the wind. This can be used to advantage for filming, it is less jerky than GPS as GPS keeps correcting all the time. The Zenmuse will even out the jerkiness but lesser gimbals has a hard time with this and you need to use post stabilization in your video.
2) Was it the lightness of the F550 that made it susceptible to wind? Would a different gimbal make the difference?
Yes a lighter craft is more suseptible to turbulence. Smooth wind is not a problem, turbulence is, there is always turbulence around buildings trees hills etc when the wind is blowing. A heavier MR is not affected as much.
3) What do you reckon the payload of your F550 is?
Realistically maybe 1 lb after you add a battery, 1 1/2 is pushing it. The 550 is made for takeoff weight of 2.7KG, the S800 is made for slightly more than 7KG. Don't forget batteries are part of this and the batts for the 800 are very heavy more than 3 lbs, but this still leaves a much greater payload. The Zen is heavy.
Patrick at AerialMediaPros.com is a great guy to talk to about choices there are many. He has always answered all my questions and his recomendations have proven very good for me.
Check these videos, they show the 550 and 450 video with post stabilization:
https://vimeo.com/57225152
https://vimeo.com/57552088
.................................................
And just 450 with no stabilization, no gimbal:
https://vimeo.com/57337774
.................................................
Here is the Zen 800 raw footage:
https://vimeo.com/59617201
1) Does the Naza or WKM not help with stability? My understanding was that it "assists" with some flight parameters.
Yes they do, GPS mode helps you fight the wind the MR stays where you put it.
Atti mode makes the MR hold altitude and when sticks are centered the MR is level, but it will drift with the wind. This can be used to advantage for filming, it is less jerky than GPS as GPS keeps correcting all the time. The Zenmuse will even out the jerkiness but lesser gimbals has a hard time with this and you need to use post stabilization in your video.
2) Was it the lightness of the F550 that made it susceptible to wind? Would a different gimbal make the difference?
Yes a lighter craft is more suseptible to turbulence. Smooth wind is not a problem, turbulence is, there is always turbulence around buildings trees hills etc when the wind is blowing. A heavier MR is not affected as much.
3) What do you reckon the payload of your F550 is?
Realistically maybe 1 lb after you add a battery, 1 1/2 is pushing it. The 550 is made for takeoff weight of 2.7KG, the S800 is made for slightly more than 7KG. Don't forget batteries are part of this and the batts for the 800 are very heavy more than 3 lbs, but this still leaves a much greater payload. The Zen is heavy.
Patrick at AerialMediaPros.com is a great guy to talk to about choices there are many. He has always answered all my questions and his recomendations have proven very good for me.
Check these videos, they show the 550 and 450 video with post stabilization:
https://vimeo.com/57225152
.................................................
And just 450 with no stabilization, no gimbal:
https://vimeo.com/57337774
.................................................
Here is the Zen 800 raw footage:
https://vimeo.com/59617201
Last edited by a moderator:
Bartman
Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
all aircraft are affected equally by the wind. even jumbo jets will skip across the runway in a crosswind if they aren't handled correctly. the difference in a wind comes from how the lifting airfoils are loaded. more highly loaded props/wings/rotors/etc. will offer better resistance to gusts and will appear to be more stable. lightly loaded lifting surfaces are more apt to be influenced by the currents around them so that makes them appear to be more floaty and less "stable". the nice thing with multi-rotor helicopters is that the controllers can be tuned to match the characteristics of the heli's so we can get away with a lot of variation in our set-ups. so the moral is, if you want wind resistance, reduce the prop diameter, make them work harder to stay aloft, and tune the controller to respond according to your tastes.