USA insurance

[tombrown1]

Tahoe you are misreading the statement. What they are saying is that normal run of the mill General Liability insurance doesn't cover the aircraft. Makes sense because liability has nothing to do with 'hull' insurance. But Aerial Pak does have 'hull' coverage up to the size limits that they specify.

I don't have their insurance but if they are doing it like a full size aircraft there are two components. Liability, relatively inexpensive, and hull. The hull insurance on my last airplane was 2.5% of the insured value. Guessing they do something similar. So a $25K rig vs a $50K rig have different prices. And if like the aircraft insurance the percentage may be a bit lower on more expensive equipment.

Here's the link to their FAQ page. http://aerialpak.com/faq.jsp

Anyone care to share their pricing with AerialPak?

These guys just told me on the phone today that they don't offer aircraft insurance. They only do liability.

 

[tombrown1]

Here is a Quote from the Hill and Usher website.
"Standard General Liability policies will exclude damage arising from the operation of aircraft; Aerial PakTM includes coverage for Remote Controlled Aerial Photography equipment provided the maximum payload does not exceed 25 pounds and the aircrafts engine delivers under eight (8) horsepower."
So, it specifically says it will exclude damage arising from the operation of Aircraft, but then gives a limit on the size of aircraft? These are the details they will not really talk straight about. You have to get these specifics in writing and have an independent attorney review it prior to signing. I think they will cover the heli and camera as long as the aircraft is not in use at the time or in any way a part of why there was a lose. I also don;t think that clients who require insurance will look beyond the fact that you have general liability for your company.

After reading the FAQ it looks like these guys are above board as far as liability goes.

 

[tahoelight]

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but who is to judge in the long run? The insurance company of course, unless you have the funds to take them to court if they deny your claim. I did have a conversation and price quote last year from these guys. I never pulled the trigger but honestly I don;t know the full story so take my opinion with a grain of salt. They may still be the closest there is to have coverage for this line of work.

How about this?

Is membership in the RCAPA a requirement for coverage?
Yes. Aerial Pak policyholders further agree to operate all UAV equipment within the guidelines of the RCAPA organization and the FAA.

Does anyone know what the FAA regulations are so the policy will actually cover the insured? Will they cover an operator if they are following the guidlines for general aviation or is there UAV specific rules that APer can actually follow?

I am just raising these questions because I have had commercial insurance claims denied in the past because of questionable wording. I had an boat engine blow up on me in Alaska. I had just changed a thermostat but when I put it back together a piece of the gasket was pinched and leaked fluid on our first run. I had a certified mechanic on board when I did the repair, but the insurance company found some fine print that basically did not give me permission as owner to work on the power plant. Although they also said I was allowed to maintain the boat. Go figure.... Cost me $24k and I still had to pay the insurance premium. They lost me as a customer and I think agents hate me because I ask a ton of questions and want everything in writing explained. I also learned last year mid season that my insurance for my wakesports company does not cover anyone being pulled behind my boat (which is the whole idea of my company). And it was not my agent that told me, it was my attorney. I think this happens more than not with insurance in the US. Just make sure you know the fine print and truly understand it.

 

[kloner]

I've been denied on a boat claim too. They fight them tooth and nail

I need to ask Patrick who he had and what happened to his policy that made it not seem worth it.

 

[tstrike]

What are some common exclusions in the Aerial Pak property policy?

Nuclear Events, War, Mechanical Breakdown, damage from Electrical Current, Wear & Tear, Volcanic Eruption, and Dishonest Acts of the insured. The policy should be carefully reviewed for more information. We will gladly provide a sample policy.


these exclusions pretty much nullifies the chance you'd see a payout on a claim imo.​

 

[tahoelight]

All the reasons to stick to a less expensive standard liability policy that will get you the job. I pay half the price of this policy for basically the same coverage IMO.

 

[AirFoil-Skycam]

No one is going to give away trade secrets they use. I'll give you basic costs/coverage we have for a real 6 million Aerialpak policy from H/U.

Hartford will not insure or sign on any policy listing R/C aircraft. They might say they will but once the attorneys send the wording requirements they quit responding.

1 million general liability
5 million balloon liability
$500,000 Inland marine for coverage transporting units between shooting locations.
Cost $6100.00 a year
Your basic business policy for your business. Our cost $1100 a year through Allstate

We use Safe guard 3 year drop policies on all photo/video equipment. Each item has its own policy.
The units you fly will never have full coverage. If any problem were to occur your mindset has to be ditch the aircraft in a safe zone then grab another unit. Repair is at your expense.

Your opinion of the insurance policy really doesn’t matter.The Corp. your flying for will have their attorneys research and background check the policy for adequate coverage’s then generally change some wording to insure every liability is addressed. H/U will modify the policy to include that wording needed then COA will be issued with the customer as loss payee with a hold harmless agreement.

Commercial insurance will also generally be required for the auto you carry the system in along with the trailer/UTV you’re using on site.

At this point you carry your Federal ID/Business license/COA for the customer/your basic business COA with your commercial auto policy and UTV insurance cards to enter a job site.

 

[tombrown1]

All the reasons to stick to a less expensive standard liability policy that will get you the job. I pay half the price of this policy for basically the same coverage IMO.

Who are you with?

 

[onlocation]

All the reasons to stick to a less expensive standard liability policy that will get you the job. I pay half the price of this policy for basically the same coverage IMO.

If you have a standard small business liability policy then it probably doesn't cover the operation of any type of vehicle (including aircraft and yes that even means R/C aircraft). Your client may be fooled, but if you have a mishap with the heli then you could have serious problems. To get the "right" insurance for the job will only cost a little more, and will be worth the peace of mind when you are flying over a multi-million dollar house or a fancy car.

To be clear, there are 2 types of insurance being discussed in this thread, basically we are talking about "property" and "liability" insurance:

Property insurance
-If your equipment is stolen, burned in a fire, or "lost" in some other way, property insurance is what reimburses you.
-A "Drop" policy sold with your camera may cover it in a crash. Otherwise it is highly questionable if any policies will pay out in the cash of a crash.
-Property insurance only covers your own equipment and likely won't be required by a client.
-Property insurance is available from many general small business insurance underwriters. It can be relatively inexpensive (a few hundred a year) but may be bundled with a general liability policy (that won't cover flight).
-In some cases renters or home owners policies can also cover your equipment against loss.

Liability insurance
-If you crash your heli through a window or ding a car, liability insurance is what will pay to have the window replaced or the car fixed.
-Liability insurance is what is required by most clients to work on legit jobs, usually they want to see a policy with a minimum of 1 million in coverage.
-If you don't have the proper liability insurance you can personally be held liable. Even if you don't have anything to loose like a house or savings, you can still have future wages garnished and nasty things like that.
-Most small business liability policies specifically don't cover the operation of any type of vehicle (including R/C aircraft).
-Hill and Usher's Aerial Pak is currently the only commonly known provider of a liability policy for operation of R/C aircraft. Their website is out of date but they still offer the insurance. They no longer offer any type of property insurance or bundles. H&U have liability only policies starting at $1million in coverage for $1250/year. You do not need to be a member of RCAPA to get the insurance. There are certain rules and operating limitations you must follow for the insurance to cover you, but they are very reasonable for the majority of aerial photography work.

 

[TransportRisk]

Hi,

My name is Terry and I'm with an aviation insurance brokerage called Transport Risk Management, Inc. We insure UAVs and our policies cover all uses including those for which a charge is made and aerial photo/production. We are an aviation insurance specialist and all of our policies are written with Aviation and Aerospace insurers on aviation policy forms.

Transport Risk Management is heavily involved in developing the insurance market for UAVs and in that pursuit, we want to inform manufacturers, owners and operators of the current market status and insurability of their products as we work towards developing universal insurability of the class.

Additionally, as one of the largest insurers of aerial film production activities, we are also passing along information to our film production clients who likewise carry non-owned UAV and Aviation insurance for those activities and likely require any hired operators to also carry coverage.

[FONT=&amp]We currently work with 5 global aviation insurers with respect to UAV coverage and will be presenting a paper on the insurability of UAVs at the AUVSI convention in August. Likewise we will be attending the UAS Action Summit in Grand Forks, ND at the end of May.[/FONT]

We are on FaceBook and I just posted an recent example quote there on a fleet of HoverFly UAVs. Look for facebook.com/UAVInsurance and it's pinned to the top.

I will be happy to answer any questions that you may have.



Thanks,

Terry

 

[TransportRisk]

What are some common exclusions in the Aerial Pak property policy?

Nuclear Events, War, Mechanical Breakdown, damage from Electrical Current, Wear & Tear, Volcanic Eruption, and Dishonest Acts of the insured. The policy should be carefully reviewed for more information. We will gladly provide a sample policy.


these exclusions pretty much nullifies the chance you'd see a payout on a claim imo.​

I'm an aviation insurance specialist and have no relationship to or with that vendor. Although I've not seen this particular property insurance policy form, those are pretty standard "Physical Damage" exclusions on nearly any type of "Physical Damage" policy. As I understand it, this insurance product may not include physical damage so the exclusions may not even be relevant.

On the other hand, if the policy does exclude liability coverage for losses resulting from those types of failures, then I agree, those exclusions would be disconcerting. Aviation policies contain those exclusions for "physical damage" to the vehicle itself but not for liability coverages.

I'll try to breakdown each as they would typically apply to "physical damage" coverages:

1.) Mechanical Breakdown - This would be similar to your airplane throwing a rod. Aviation insurance would not pay for the direct damage to the engine caused by the rod failure but would pay for subsequent damage such as landing off-field and hitting a fence and damaging the prop, wings and would also cover liability to repair the fence.

2.) Electrical Current - If an automobile suffered damage to it's electrical system due to a short circuit or hooking up jumper cables incorrectly, the insurance company would not pay for the damage caused by that electrical failure. In aircraft, "Heat" is also an exclusion such as hot starts on turbine engines. Coverage can be bought to cover the hot starts under "turbine engine breakdown" coverage but it's very expensive.

3.) "Dishonest Acts of the Insured" - Your own dishonesty is not a form of "Pure Risk". For example, you cannot cover your business for "Employee Dishonesty" and then, as the insured and an employee, embezzle money from the business and claim it under insurance. "Pure risk" must not have prior knowledge, permission or expectation of loss. As an insured, you also cannot profit from insurance which is a doctrine known as betterment.

Insurance policies do include approved uses such as "personal use for which no charge is made", "aerial photo for hire" or "any use of the named insured including for hire". As long as those uses are named, endorsed or specifically covered in the policy, the policy will respond regardless if the FAA or other authority considers them to be in violation of a regulation or law.

In twenty years as an aviation insurance broker, I've never had a claim denied. I'm aware of egregious policy breaches of warranty such as not fulfilling training requirements that have resulted in denials of coverage, but those are exceptional types of losses and completely avoidable.

I'd be happy to try to answer any additional questions.

 

[Bartman]

Terry,

A local insurance office has my business insured for $2 million liability and $4500 equipment damage. Annual premium is about $650. I've filed a claim for equipment damage and it was paid without any fuss.

Is this competitive with what your shop is providing?

FWIW, Hill and Usher is a rip off.

Regards,
Bart

 

[EastCoastJib]

Terry,

A local insurance office has my business insured for $2 million liability and $4500 equipment damage. Annual premium is about $650. I've filed a claim for equipment damage and it was paid without any fuss.

Is this competitive with what your shop is providing?

FWIW, Hill and Usher is a rip off.

Regards,
Bart

Bartman, My MR coverage was added to my jib coverage policy. 2 million liability and $30k to cover equipment. I'm right at $1300 for the year.

 

[TransportRisk]

Terry,

A local insurance office has my business insured for $2 million liability and $4500 equipment damage. Annual premium is about $650. I've filed a claim for equipment damage and it was paid without any fuss.

Is this competitive with what your shop is providing?

FWIW, Hill and Usher is a rip off.

Regards,
Bart

Hi Bartman,

That looks to be very competitive depending upon what it covers as far as uses and activities. If it covers you for what you do then it is excellent and definitely something you want to hold onto.

Most non-aviation Commercial General Liability (CGL) and Business Owner Policies (BOPs) exclude flight and aviation uses which is really the exposures what we deal with. They are also commonly a sub-limited policy with an aggregate limit such as $1,000,000 per occurrence and $2,000,000 aggregate. Actually, it appears that the Aerial Pak is just a non-aviation policy with the aviation exclusion removed and limited to weight and HP. Our policies are actual aviation policies on aircraft forms and do not limit weight, HP, uses or types and have a smooth per occurrence limit with no aggregate limit.

We're aviation specialists and in addition to our aircraft practice, do a tremendous amount of aerial film production insurance. In addition to the primary policies carried on aircraft, production companies also purchase non-owned aviation liability policies to cover their own exposures resulting from their hiring of aircraft. We insure both the aircraft operator and the production companies in may cases and are the program insurer for the Movie Pilots Association. We started doing UAV/MR when our production company clients such as DreamWorks began asking to use them for production work. The UAV/MR operators typically do, or did not have liability coverage for aviation operations so in turn the production companies could not insure themselves and therefore could not use them. We were able to insure the UAV/MR operators for aviation and that has lead to our ability to cover our production companies and allows them to hire those operators. In fact, today alone we have four film shoots going on around the world using UAVs.

We are now insuring all types of UAVs for many different uses including law enforcement, agriculture, pipeline and powerline patrol and even ski patrol.

If you are already insured as a business for your activities and are able to include the aviation or UAV/MR operational exposure, that's the ultimate situation from a coverage limit and premium standpoint and should be placed that way.

Most new entries into the industry do not carry coverage of any type and so adding it to an existing policy is not an option for them.

Our aviation policies on UAVs run about $1,000 per year, per vehicle for $1,000,000 per occurrence combined single limit of liability including commercial uses and worldwide territory. No sub limit and no aggregate. This is really no different than a policy that would be carried on a helicopter. In fact, it's the same policy form and insurance company. This does not include physical damage to the vehicle.

We work with 5 different insurers depending upon the type of operation and size of UAV.

A lot more information than you asked for I know, but it gets complex. We are also trying to get our arms around what operators need and for that matter, if it's even worth getting involved in too deeply. The revenue may not be worth the time unless it is in support of our other lines of business such as film production. We just don't know at this point.

 

[EastCoastJib]

@transport risk..
Great information! Thanks for posting. I for one will be taking a hard look at my company's current policy/underwriter. Lots to think about.