Which is better in wind - F450 or F550?

[adanac]

After determining that the Phantom 2 is virtually useless for aerial video (constant vibration and involuntary yaw changes) I want to get something that truly works for the GoPro. One thing about the Phantom 2 is that it can't tolerate even the slightest wind and I need something that I can actually fly, not just drift, in the wind while shooting stable video.

A reliable source here has said that the F450 is better in the wind than the F550 because it has fewer props. I trust this person but I don't understand. Does that mean an F450 is better in the wind than an S800 or S1000?

 

[Tahoe Ed]

No you are talking about a entirely different machine. Large multi rotors that are 15-20 pounds AUW are very stable.

 

[adanac]

Does the higher AUW of the F550 not add stability over the F450?

No you are talking about a entirely different machine. Large multi rotors that are 15-20 pounds AUW are very stable.

 

[W. Reimer]

You'll likely find just as many 450 owners that would agree with your friend as you would find 550 owners who don't. I've always found that a dialled in Phantom does quite well in wind, better than I would expect certainly....but that wasn't your question.

I have a 550, and for the short time it was naked, I didn't find it terribly stable in wind. However, a gimbal, GoPro and an FPV system, plus 2 5000mah batteries, and it's rock solid in 25kmh winds. It is a different beast than a Phantom...or a 450. It flies differently, it's heavier and I think because of sheer mass if nothing else it's a bit more stable...IF you have the added weight of camera equipment on board

 

[adanac]

1) I'd love to know how to "dial in" my Phantom 2. At this point it is my conviction that I have a defective aircraft and/or gimbal. I've changed dampeners, put in a Futaba receiver and carefully balanced the props and it still shudders frequently and, despite drifting in ATTI mode with my hand OFF the stick, yaws back and forth on it's own like a pendulum. Nothing I do changes it's behaviour:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVLA6FZNTts&list=UUuvT_0LvRWDt62ixGoE3sVw

(I love that youtube tells me it detects my video is shaky - no ****!)

2) The F450 or F550 I would build would have the GoPro, gimbal and FPV components on it (mini iOSD, ImmersionRC 600mW vtx, etc.). I am very discouraged by the Phantom experience both money and time-wise and would probably shoot myself if the next GoPro platform I buy can't shoot while flying (not just drifting) in the wind and yaws constantly on it's own. I can't make the same mistake two aircraft in a row.

You'll likely find just as many 450 owners that would agree with your friend as you would find 550 owners who don't. I've always found that a dialled in Phantom does quite well in wind, better than I would expect certainly....but that wasn't your question.

I have a 550, and for the short time it was naked, I didn't find it terribly stable in wind. However, a gimbal, GoPro and an FPV system, plus 2 5000mah batteries, and it's rock solid in 25kmh winds. It is a different beast than a Phantom...or a 450. It flies differently, it's heavier and I think because of sheer mass if nothing else it's a bit more stable...IF you have the added weight of camera equipment on board

 

[W. Reimer]

What, if anything, have you done with your gains? Have you adjusted them at all in Assistant? If so, have you tried setting them back to default and starting again? Who did the gimbal install, and what type of gimbal is it? Although gain "twitch" is more commonly a more rapid oscillation than what I'm seeing there, oscillation on an axis is a common result of improperly set gains. Your Phantom should, if properly set up and dialled in a bit, in GPS mode remain fairly still hands off the controls completely in a 15kmh wind. It's hard to tell whether you have much wind in that video, but with forward movement I wouldn't expect to see that sort of tail twitch...that's usually a single rotor heli trait.

From what you're describing, you would have a 450 or 550 set up almost identically to the way my 550 is configured, other than my having a separate FPV camera in addition to the GoPro. I'd be surprised to see a twitch like that in a 20kmh + wind

 

[adanac]

I have put them back to default and then, after that, adjusted them more in line with Ed's suggestions. Video always bad and nothing like I see from guys who post videos to youtube of their first flights and it looks like the camera is on a tripod. Maybe it's just too windy here. Even if DJI published wind tolerances for their aircraft, I have no way of knowing the wind where I am. It is fairly windy today so maybe I need to put it down until they die down. I think I need to go to an F550.

What, if anything, have you done with your gains? Have you adjusted them at all in Assistant? If so, have you tried setting them back to default and starting again? Who did the gimbal install, and what type of gimbal is it? Although gain "twitch" is more commonly a more rapid oscillation than what I'm seeing there, oscillation on an axis is a common result of improperly set gains. Your Phantom should, if properly set up and dialled in a bit, in GPS mode remain fairly still hands off the controls completely in a 15kmh wind. It's hard to tell whether you have much wind in that video, but with forward movement I wouldn't expect to see that sort of tail twitch...that's usually a single rotor heli trait.

From what you're describing, you would have a 450 or 550 set up almost identically to the way my 550 is configured, other than my having a separate FPV camera in addition to the GoPro. I'd be surprised to see a twitch like that in a 20kmh + wind

 

[TheUFGadget]

First thing is that I am concerned about your vibrations. My E300 motors have ZERO vibrations on them. I hard mount my gopro to the frame and have jello free video. That right there may be a good indication something is wrong. Bearing loose, damaged motor, etc

 

[adanac]

I'm not sure it's actually jello..more like occasional shuddering like you do when you get cold! That and uncontrollable yawing like a pendulum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVLA6FZNTts

First thing is that I am concerned about your vibrations. My E300 motors have ZERO vibrations on them. I hard mount my gopro to the frame and have jello free video. That right there may be a good indication something is wrong. Bearing loose, damaged motor, etc

 

[adanac]

Anyhow, I fear getting off topic. I really want to know what platform I can fly a GoPro with and fly in the wind and shoot stable video, not just drift. By fly I mean deliberately move the multi around as I wish regardless of wind direction.

 

[TheUFGadget]

I would say Phantom 2 as one of the best models. If you are looking bigger go the F450. Before you invest in more equipment I would try and identify the problem. I have flown phantom 1 and 2's extensively and they are ALWAYS rock solid. My Dad's with a Zenmuse is as good if not better than my F450

 

[adanac]

This has not been my experience, unfortunately, and it's hard to imagine the 450 will be much better as it is only slightly larger. I think the AUW of my Phantom 2 might be greater than a loaded F450 (I have both but have not flown the F450 much).

As an aside, it's hard to imagine anything farther from an "investment" than a multirotor, except possibly food! As much as people try to help in the forums (for which I'm obviously thankful), the truth seems to be that if you want to know if something will work you have to buy, build and fly it. Only then will you know. This is a case in point. Some people say you can't fly the P2 in wind, you say it's one of the best in wind. I've yet to learn if I can fly an F550 in wind and get stable footage. The only way I'll ever know is to buy one, build it and fly it. If it's not good all that time and much of that money is wasted.

I would say Phantom 2 as one of the best models. If you are looking bigger go the F450. Before you invest in more equipment I would try and identify the problem. I have flown phantom 1 and 2's extensively and they are ALWAYS rock solid. My Dad's with a Zenmuse is as good if not better than my F450

 

[W. Reimer]

I'm in one of, arguably, the windiest places in north America; the middle of the Canadian Prairies. I can count on one hand the number of days in the last 6 months where we have not had at least 10mph winds and averaging closer to 15mph. To a degree, wind is something you also learn to accommodate, but there is a point where accommodation just isn't in the cards. As I said before, I've also found the Phantom does a reasonable job in wind for the most part, but it certainly has a lower threshold than the 550, no question. Have you considered picking up a small handheld wind meter like a Brunton? They're around 100 bucks, and to me, invaluable. I bought mine years ago when I first started flying pod & boom heli's, and it's a part of my pre-flight, checking on the exact wind speed, gust speeds, etc. Without it, I'm just quessing, and there have been more than a few times where had I gone with my gut, I'd have flown in winds that after measuring them would have been really sketchy.

It does come down to knowing what your multi will handle, and what you're comfortable with too. Some people are fine with flying in wind, and some are terrified of it. You do have to understand it to be able to maximize your flying time; if say a Phantom has a max forward speed of....I don't know? 8 metres/sec. and you're winds are 10 metres/sec., you KNOW you're going in one direction only, and it isn't going to be upwind.

 

[adanac]

Great advice, thank you. I'll definitely get a wind meter. At the moment, my real question is whether I can shoot while flying (not just drifting) in the wind with the F450 and F550 and I believe the only way to know is to buy an F550, build it and see.

I'm in one of, arguably, the windiest places in north America; the middle of the Canadian Prairies. I can count on one hand the number of days in the last 6 months where we have not had at least 10mph winds and averaging closer to 15mph. To a degree, wind is something you also learn to accommodate, but there is a point where accommodation just isn't in the cards. As I said before, I've also found the Phantom does a reasonable job in wind for the most part, but it certainly has a lower threshold than the 550, no question. Have you considered picking up a small handheld wind meter like a Brunton? They're around 100 bucks, and to me, invaluable. I bought mine years ago when I first started flying pod & boom heli's, and it's a part of my pre-flight, checking on the exact wind speed, gust speeds, etc. Without it, I'm just quessing, and there have been more than a few times where had I gone with my gut, I'd have flown in winds that after measuring them would have been really sketchy.

It does come down to knowing what your multi will handle, and what you're comfortable with too. Some people are fine with flying in wind, and some are terrified of it. You do have to understand it to be able to maximize your flying time; if say a Phantom has a max forward speed of....I don't know? 8 metres/sec. and you're winds are 10 metres/sec., you KNOW you're going in one direction only, and it isn't going to be upwind.