Section 333

[neavissa]

Hi,

I brought this up over at rcg and was called scheme artist and what not. Why?! I have no idea. I am not posting something that I would call "illegal" by any means. Judge for yourselves...

Idea 1: Isn't it technically possible to get around the whole thing by just working on donation basis!?

Idea 2: It has been a long time since I prepared for my oral exam (commercial license helicopter), but if I remember correctly, there was this one thing, that made sense and didn't. It had something to do with "holding out" and the "willingness" to work as a PIC, that made the difference between commercial pilot and commercial operator...

To translate that into the real world, it would be like this: If you are a cab driver, you can sit in front of a club and ask people if they need a ride, and you are willing to do it for money. There is the holding out and willingness. That's legal.

If you are not a cab driver, you can obviously not ask people, so you cannot hold out our show the willingness, BUT, if THEY ask you, if you can take them home for money - that's legal.

Get it!?

That said, here is a way that SHOULD allow you to "bypass" the FAA.

Fly around enough to get people's attention. When THEY ask what you do, you tell them that you take aerials for free... for an art project, or because you want to be an architect... something like that. Not illegal! You are not advertising (holding out or showing the willingness to do something for hire, very important).

Next you take the pictures or video.

Now, the main question is, how do they ("they" are the Clients, but I don't want to call them that) get your pictures, and how do you get their money!? Easy. Make them sign up for a membership to your website. A website that happens to host the pictures, that they happen to be able to access. Of course there will be other people's pictures on the site, just to show that the content is available to ALL members, so you are not just selling to one "client"...

I am not a lawyer, and I have no idea if this would actually work, but it sure looks like it...

Thanks,

G

P.s. I know it is far fetched but I like to brainstorm and find ways to make things work... for free, LOL.

Disclaimer. I am not a lawyer. I am not the president. I am not Bruce Wayne. This is for fictional purpose only. Every resemblance to any real living Jacka$$ is coincidental.

 

[neavissa]

Wow, no one has an opinion?!

 

[SleepyC]

Well the thing is, most of us deal with professional clients that would want no part of this. The productions most people deal with require insurance and the proof that your company has the insurance to cover any issues. This may sort of work for some situations but not most professional gigs.

And an even simpler way around the whole deal is to Fly for free, shoot for free and hand over the footage for free.. But charge a butt load for color grading or editing.

 

[neavissa]

Well the thing is, most of us deal with professional clients that would want no part of this. The productions most people deal with require insurance and the proof that your company has the insurance to cover any issues. This may sort of work for some situations but not most professional gigs.

I agree 100%! It would also be rather impractical of doing it "my" way, and I know that. I will file my paperwork, once I figured out how, ha ha, and then I will be doing it the "correct" way, for the above mentioned reasons. However, I like food for thoughts. I am also curious if my "idea" would indeed work or not?!

That said, leaving the impractical side alone, DO YOU THINK it would work?!

And an even simpler way around the whole deal is to Fly for free, shoot for free and hand over the footage for free.. But charge a butt load for color grading or editing.

LOL, never thought about that. Seriously though, would that work?!

thanks for you input!

G

 

[Ronan]

I can tell you from first hand experience, professional clients will not bother themselves with if and buts and what not. They would rather go and pay more to have it done the traditional way, even if it's 3x-4x more expensive.

 

[neavissa]

I can tell you from first hand experience, professional clients will not bother themselves with if and buts and what not. They would rather go and pay more to have it done the traditional way, even if it's 3x-4x more expensive.

Ronan, I really don't want to be rude, but did you even read my last post!? I agree 100% with SleepyRC and I have to agree with you. I understand that it is not really practical, but that is not the point!

Would it work (be legal), or not!?

Thanks,

G

P.s. I guess every astronomer is wading their time too, right!? I mean, why look at all these stars and planets if he is never going there anyway!? (Sarcasm)

 

[Old Man]

Why waste the time philosophizing over the impractical?

 

[neavissa]

Why waste the time philosophizing over the impractical?

Because that's what smart people do.

 

[Ronan]

Ronan, I really don't want to be rude, but did you even read my last post!? I agree 100% with SleepyRC and I have to agree with you. I understand that it is not really practical, but that is not the point!

Would it work (be legal), or not!?

Thanks,

G

P.s. I guess every astronomer is wading their time too, right!? I mean, why look at all these stars and planets if he is never going there anyway!? (Sarcasm)

The FAA is a very large and powerful federal agency, that has already shown that they can quote non-existing laws and even infringe on people's amendments (and they can make your legal life a living nightmare). Think about that, and then think if ANYTHING we say/do/scheme/think of/try would work against the FAA.

At the end of the day, FAA wins.

As for a business side, i replied to you with my personal experience, so big business's (where the money is) would not be bothered by a smaller business trying what you suggested. As for 'small' one's and individuals, well anything goes i guess... People have been doing what you said in one form or another for years. It's usually 'ok' until the FAA decides to look at you and order you to stop it, threaten you, fine you, etc...

In a nutshell we are (trying) to work in a grey area, which legally means "we are not breaking any laws, because there is no law". That works, but the FAA states "since there is no law, it's illegal". Also, it doesn't matter how careful we are, how much safety and precautions we take, because currently no one reports on that in the news, but Joe Blog that just bought his XYZ Drone and crashes it in his neighbor's tree will make the front page (still i urge everyone to be very careful, safety is #1!!!)...

 

[Old Man]

Ronan,

Rumor has it Friday might bring a big announcement from the people that have been making things difficult.

As for this other thing, people have been trying to dream up a million ways to beat the system, most of them trying to earn pennies when big money is the penalty for being wrong. The philosophizing here isn't something for the masses to decide, it belongs on the desk of a corporate attorney or one that specializes in flight and business law. If you want to be poor, play all the angles attempting to game the system. If you want to make serious money, learn how the system works and let it work for you.

 

[Carapau]

In a word NO. It would not work as the marketing plan is fundamentally flawed. Just flying around to grab people's attention just simply wont get you any work. You may get the odd job but for the hours flown it would simply not be worth the effort.

 

[neavissa]

The FAA is a very large and powerful federal agency, that has already shown that they can quote non-existing laws and even infringe on people's amendments (and they can make your legal life a living nightmare). Think about that, and then think if ANYTHING we say/do/scheme/think of/try would work against the FAA. At the end of the day, FAA wins.

First, thanks for the reply. Second, I had no idea that the FAA is supposed to be this "hardcore". Sure, if there is a law in place, I can see the FAA going after people who don't follow it, and I can also see the FAA fine them, or even throw them in jail. But, I really have a hard time believing that the FAA would go after someone, who is not braking a law, just because the FAA "knows" that that person is using a loophole to bypass a law?!

Remember when companies used to pay their CEO's with "Payment-in-kind"?! Don't you think the IRS knew why companies did it like that? Of course they knew. It was a way of people to avoid paying certain taxes. They did not get in any trouble at all. All the IRS could do, was to change the laws and made it harder to get paid in kind, BUT, before that, no one was in trouble.

Anyhow, I was simply wondering if my "idea" would work or not, from a legal standpoint. Based on what people say in this, and other forums, it is not worth it to go against the FAA. I disagree. I disagree because I don't see the clear evidence that I would indeed go against the FAA, since I am not braking any laws.

So far no one was able to tell me, why my "plan" would not work. All I hear is the typical, "Sh*t, are you crazy man, messing with the Government?! They can do whatever they want. They can crush you. They can... blah, blah, blah.".

Sorry, but I am not from the US, and I am not afraid of the government. Especially not if I am not braking the law, but rather piss them off, ha ha.

As for a business side, i replied to you with my personal experience, so big business's (where the money is) would not be bothered by a smaller business trying what you suggested.

I believe you, and I totally agree. But, like I said before, I am not planning on going that route at all. I would like to know though. Why not?! I am sure you have window shopped before and looked at items that are way out of reach. So?! No harm done.

As for 'small' one's and individuals, well anything goes i guess... People have been doing what you said in one form or another for years. It's usually 'ok' until the FAA decides to look at you and order you to stop it, threaten you, fine you, etc...

Exactly! This is nothing new, and there is always a "loophole" that one can use... Once again, I don't think I would be doing anything illegal, so I don't have anything to worry about. And even if they decide to come after me, I am sure I will get a warning first!

In a nutshell we are (trying) to work in a grey area, which legally means "we are not breaking any laws, because there is no law". That works, but the FAA states "since there is no law, it's illegal".

LOL, good point!

Also, it doesn't matter how careful we are, how much safety and precautions we take, because currently no one reports on that in the news, but Joe Blog that just bought his XYZ Drone and crashes it in his neighbor's tree will make the front page (still i urge everyone to be very careful, safety is #1!!!)...

Agree again. Safety is number one!

thanks,

G

 

[neavissa]

As for this other thing, people have been trying to dream up a million ways to beat the system, most of them trying to earn pennies when big money is the penalty for being wrong.

I agree, trying to beat the system is not a good idea. It all depends on the definition of "beating" though! Take a look at this article and you will see what I mean. Apple pays almost no taxes at all. Are they also "beating" the system?! Once again, it all depends on the definition of "beating". Anyhow, I am simply going to do it the Apple way, ha ha.

The philosophizing here isn't something for the masses to decide, it belongs on the desk of a corporate attorney or one that specializes in flight and business law.

True. But it isn't hurting anything or anyone, to ask something like this on a forum. Maybe someone knows. As it turns out, you are correct, nobody on any forum really knows. They all have something smart to say, but they really don't know. And I don't blame them for it, but why getting involved if you know, you don't know?! LOL.

If you want to be poor, play all the angles attempting to game the system. If you want to make serious money, learn how the system works and let it work for you.

If you say so, I guess its official...

thanks,

G

 

[neavissa]

In a word NO. It would not work as the marketing plan is fundamentally flawed. Just flying around to grab people's attention just simply wont get you any work. You may get the odd job but for the hours flown it would simply not be worth the effort.

You are a moderator and don't even bother to read what people actually write?! Interesting! Anyhow, let me say it again, just for you...

I don't care how practical this is or not. I also used some form of dramatization to make my point. The only thing I am interest in, is if this is legal or not...

thanks,

G

 

[Carapau]

That said, leaving the impractical side alone, DO YOU THINK it would work?!

As you can see, you have clearly asked weather your idea would work or not, you also said 'Wow, no one has an opinion". All I have done is a/ told you weather I think it would work or not and b/ expressed my opinion.

If you were wondering about the legal side of it then based on experience here in the UK the FAA would probably act in the same manner as our CAA and see straight through the ruse.

 

[neavissa]

As you can see, you have clearly asked weather your idea would work or not, you also said 'Wow, no one has an opinion". All I have done is a/ told you weather I think it would work or not and b/ expressed my opinion.

If you were wondering about the legal side of it then based on experience here in the UK the FAA would probably act in the same manner as our CAA and see straight through the ruse.

True, I asked for an opinion. But not just any opinion. It has to be related to the topic, don't you think!?

Thanks,

G

Edit: you are not the only one. Others got "hung up" on the semantics as well. It's ONLY about the legal aspect, not if it is a great business idea or not. I know it isn't, ha ha.

 

[Hexacrafter]

Simply put....
ALL FEDERAL AGENCIES WORK TOGETHER......
You may think you won...... Then IRS Audit 7 years in a row......Do you really want to tug on Superman's cape?
They will find a way to STOP you.

 

[neavissa]

Simply put....
ALL FEDERAL AGENCIES WORK TOGETHER......
You may think you won...... Then IRS Audit 7 years in a row......Do you really want to tug on Superman's cape?
They will find a way to STOP you.

Sure they work all together, but they are not that great at it, ha ha. Believe me, I had my fair share of government involvement, and it was no way as bad as I thought it would. People are made to be scared of the government.

No, I don't want to put on a Superman cape, and I don't have to.

Look back at all the replies. Everyone is acting like I am doing something fishy or illegal. They all base their arguments on the fact, that I am doing something fishy and illegal, which indeed is not a fact. Innocent until proven guilty.

The way people react to my "idea" was pretty predictable. But that is o.k... I can deal with it to a certain point. It just gets to much, when you hear the same thing over and over again

At this point I have to quote one of my favorite movie quotes:

it's not what you know, it's what you can prove.

That said, no one in this thread seems to know if it is legal or not. Fair enough.

Thanks,

G

 

[Hexacrafter]

I think it is more like do you have the money to pay accountants, and lawyers to defend your position.....
They can charge you with any number of things or cause you other issues as mentioned above.....
The FAA has been directed to work with Local Law Enforcement as well.... They could simply change you with disorderly conduct, or any other public safety violation....I believe you are going to see a lot more of this action ......
By the time you pay all of the lawyers and accountants.... you probably would have got off cheaper to just jump through their hoops and get the 333 Exemption and all of the required license and permits....
just MHO....
It is also my opinion... that this type of behavior makes it more difficult for those of us that are working as a group to lessen the current standard and direction by the FAA.....like a sUAS Pilot Certification Program as they have in the UK.
Sooner or later they will regulate this.... I prefer to help steer the process into the most friendly and common sense direction....This is really all the power I have....

 

[Old Man]

I view the subject matter of this thread as something seen from the view of an extremely naive individual. He can't see the reasons not to try because he doesn't want to. From the perspective of someone immersed in the current regulatory processes it't clear he has no concept of how our government works. Sadly, he appears one that would go ahead with his plans and let the rest in professional flight operations suffer the consequences if his actions, and do so without remorse.


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