DJI Folding Props: Any Hope?

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
I just finished building a Tarot 650 quad frame, and I decided to try the folding DJI 15" props. So far the machine flies quite well, but I can't get rid of the vibrations. It's bad. Worst I've ever seen. Worse than any heli I have. I've tried different amounts of tightness. No luck. I've checked the weight of the pairs, they are within a few 0.01g of eachother. Doesn't get much better than that. But they shake like hell. They are worse even than completely unbalanced APC props.

Can anything be done?
 

BenSkoning

frozen in the north
Moon gel all over the place, sandwiched between motor and frame, and around the booms in to the center plates. Only things I can think of .. well.. maybe check the prop mounting hardware.

-Ben
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
I'm not looking for the basics of vibration damping, I'm pretty skilled at that. (and that certainly doesn't include moon gel) The camera is very already fairly well vibration damped. If I could add some mass to the camera mount, put the battery up front, then it might work. But the battery needs to be at the back to balance. So the only way that maybe it could work, is completely re-engineer the frame layout, so that the camera and battery(s) are on a damped sled under the center frame. But it really starts to defeat the purpose of this machine, I wanted a nice, simple, light little quad for video.

I'm just wondering, is there anything that can be done with these props or are they hopeless? The vibration is literally 10 times worse than my helicopters, which most people think shake a lot.
 

gtranquilla

RadioActive
And I thought one of the benefits of folding props was some isolation from prop balance/vibration issues.....

I am still relatively new at this but here are some questions and guesses..

Radial or Axial vibration?
If radial vibration has been ruled out there may still be axial vibration which some are able to identify in the vibration waveform.
Axial vibration can be caused by a difference in prop pitch between blades, motor bell runout or sloppy bearing at one or both ends and motor shaft up down movement can also result.

Was motor balancing completed first and done again with prop adapter assembly only?
Regular props also have to be hub balanced.... it would seem to be more complicated with extra joints involved between motor shaft and each blade.



I'm not looking for the basics of vibration damping, I'm pretty skilled at that. (and that certainly doesn't include moon gel) The camera is very already fairly well vibration damped. If I could add some mass to the camera mount, put the battery up front, then it might work. But the battery needs to be at the back to balance. So the only way that maybe it could work, is completely re-engineer the frame layout, so that the camera and battery(s) are on a damped sled under the center frame. But it really starts to defeat the purpose of this machine, I wanted a nice, simple, light little quad for video.

I'm just wondering, is there anything that can be done with these props or are they hopeless? The vibration is literally 10 times worse than my helicopters, which most people think shake a lot.
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
The worst vibration seems to be radial.

Didn't do any motor balancing. Never have bothered on any motors, and don't normally have a problem (due to good vibration damping. These are KDE motors, so should be very well balanced already. Bearings are good. They run very very smooth without blades.

I can't even do a blade balance, because of the way the adaptors are, I can't even mount them in my balancer. And then, any attempt to balance seems to be futile as it's so easily thrown out by even the slightest blade position error.

And I thought one of the benefits of folding props was some isolation from prop balance/vibration issues.....

Definitely not. These are nothing like helicopter rotor heads.
 

Ronan

Member
That sucks... i just got carbon folding props since they are advertise to be balanced and cause less vibration (plus i can carry the whole thing assemble in a case, saves times, saves money!)... I haven't tried them yet but if the DJI one's are causing issues...
 

Tahoe Ed

Active Member
Make sure the prop screws are properly attached. DJI specs .4nm of torque. The least expensive torque driver I could find was $69 on Amazon.
 

jes1111

Active Member
I can strongly recommend the Wiha torque drivers - very consistent - this is not the sort of tool you should buy cheap, obviously.

I'm surprised to hear of your problems. I've followed these folding props with interest - they have so many advantages and really want to use them on my next build - everything I've heard so far seemed to be positive (including here). I know you to be a scientific head, so the obvious (but dull) next step is to start a process of elimination. I'm thinking the most obvious problem would be non-centered mounting holes on the bell. I wonder whether it would be possible to make a balance for the whole prop/hub/bell/shaft assembly - rig a kind of "cantilevered double Dubro"?
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
Make sure the prop screws are properly attached. DJI specs .4nm of torque. The least expensive torque driver I could find was $69 on Amazon.

Hmmm... interesting. Thanks. I had only found this as official guidance up until now:

http://www.dji.com/product/spreading-wings-s800-evo/faq

Fasten it as tight as possible, but make sure that the propellers can be unfolded smoothly when you start the motors. If they are too loose or too tight they could give excessive vibration.

Which is definitely unhelpful. I've tried several levels of tightness. From very loose, to fairly tight. Nothing seems to make a significant difference. I'm not sure if using a torque driver would help, because the hubs don't seem to be very accurately machined. The force required to move the blades does not seem to be very consistent even if the screws are consistently tightened.

I'm surprised to hear of your problems. I've followed these folding props with interest - they have so many advantages and really want to use them on my next build - everything I've heard so far seemed to be positive (including here). I know you to be a scientific head, so the obvious (but dull) next step is to start a process of elimination. I'm thinking the most obvious problem would be non-centered mounting holes on the bell. I wonder whether it would be possible to make a balance for the whole prop/hub/bell/shaft assembly - rig a kind of "cantilevered double Dubro"?

Yeah, actually I read that review as well. He did say they vibrate significantly more than the T-motor solid props.

It's entirely possible that the problem is being exacerbated by the Tarot 650 frame. It's a folding frame and there's a saying "if it folds, it vibrates". It's definitely not a rigid frame. It's also got a really crappy camera mounting system. I will probably end up re-engineering that part. I typically don't even bother balancing propellers anyway. You can spend infinite amounts of time balancing things, and then as soon as you start moving through the air, they start vibrating anyway. So the damping of the camera platform is critical.

I was just surprised how high the vibration is on this machine. I misspoke when I said this is the worst I've seen. I've got an F450, with NTM motors with bad bearings that are worse. That's just a basher frame. But the vibes are worse than any of my serious machines, and even my helis.

I'll say, the blades themselves look fantastic. Very accurately molded, and very very close in weight. And they seem efficient. The hubs I'm not happy with. The machining tolerances do not look great.

If I drilled the top hub, then I think I could put it on a balancer.
 

Ronan

Member
Took off today, same problems are R_Lefebvre... It's impossible to tell how tight it needs to be (tighten it a BIT more and the damn thing doesn't unfold).

Tried with a cheap torque driver, unreliable. Ordering a high quality one (another $200 spent...).

I'm using the tarot carbon fiber props and tarot machined adapters, which are all well made and there isn't a LOT of vibration but deff more than using cheap carbon fiber props...
 



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