Man drone: Can a multicopter carry a person!

W

winfried

Member
Dear guys, I am wondering if a person can fly like a humming bird. It can, it seems.

View attachment 19899View attachment 19899 see also the humming man project on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rIKDEblD94)

With a small team we are working on a man drone that should carry 80 kg, this might also work for parcel carriers. Thing of this as open source and we can share all I have so far. The tech calculations, shopping list, etc.. So I am looking for a experienced multicopter expert who might go through the design with us. It should work for less than 10.000 Euro... Once we have build a proof of concept, we can find investors to sponsor a competition (just like the solar race ) and student teams all around the world can join.. With companies in battery technology we can add flight duration time and with safety experts cover that area. see it as a development like the google driverless car tech, also spurred by competition. Hope to hear from you experts, Best Winfried


Winfried Rijssenbeek, winfriedrijssenbeek@gmail.com
 

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W

winfried

Member
MAN DRONE the hexacopter carrying one person New Website

We now have a website, so have a look! http://www.thehummingmanproject.com/ Just let us know, if you think it can work? +31 6 53172983

Best Regards, Winfried


winfried said:
Dear guys, I am wondering if a person can fly like a humming bird. It can, it seems.

View attachment 24331View attachment 24331 see also the humming man project on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rIKDEblD94)

With a small team we are working on a man drone that should carry 80 kg, this might also work for parcel carriers. Thing of this as open source and we can share all I have so far. The tech calculations, shopping list, etc.. So I am looking for a experienced multicopter expert who might go through the design with us. It should work for less than 10.000 Euro... Once we have build a proof of concept, we can find investors to sponsor a competition (just like the solar race ) and student teams all around the world can join.. With companies in battery technology we can add flight duration time and with safety experts cover that area. see it as a development like the google driverless car tech, also spurred by competition. Hope to hear from you experts, Best Winfried


Winfried Rijssenbeek, winfriedrijssenbeek@gmail.com
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R

Ronan

Member
Good luck, but considering 1 high performance but compact electrical motor is a few thousand dollars, your idea might be a bit too early for the 10,000 euro goal!

Hope it works out and no one gets injured, because it would be fun ;)
 



FerdinandK

FerdinandK

Member
Is there a "power" version on the road-map, since I am not member of the <80kg class ... (mostly because of my heavy shoes and cloth :D ).
All the best, but you should add one or two 0 on your business plan otherwise possible investors immediately think "kids", "joke", ... but most important "... no money to earn".

best regards
Ferdinand
 

W

winfried

Member
Think you are right, however...

Dear Ronan,

interesting, a compact electric motor of ca 10 kW costs about 320 Euro. Do understand that such motor e.g. ROTOMAX 150 cc HK needs to be upgraded for a real life system. I always work in kg prices, once you talk about mass production. You can do that with products of each market segment, whether it is cars or computers.

Indeed good to make clear that this mass production is not for now: see the first experiment of the guy (Elon Musk) who started Tesla with using computer Li-ion batteries! We are in a stage to show the proof of concept. Then it might move on when more teams start to work on such crafts.. www.thehummingmanproject.com

What about the open source idea? Could you imagine teams of students and enthusiasts and experts developing such crafts in a competition?

Any ideas on this, best regards, Winfried

PS Launchpoint Halbach motor power point presentation on more powerful motors!











Ronan said:
Good luck, but considering 1 high performance but compact electrical motor is a few thousand dollars, your idea might be a bit too early for the 10,000 euro goal!

Hope it works out and no one gets injured, because it would be fun ;)
Click to expand...
 

W

winfried

Member
Yes, might be an alternative: basically we strive to have something compact. The funny thing is that this is only possible due to the technology (hard and software)! 20 Years ago we could not have dreamt of this. Janoots, how would you imagine the shape and config?

Best Winfried Thanks for the note!
 

W

winfried

Member
Dear Ferdinand,

For sure it's the shoes!

You have a good point! one or 2 zero's extra is something that would really attract investors. Hope you can follow this line of reasoning: compare google driverless cars and the segway in the way it comes to development. Segway was a exclusive secretive effort, and a one hand. Google driverless cars was a serious effort to get car makers go faster in this area of driverless cars. Competition in the USA on this topic (Don't recall the name), spurred teams to give their best. Now, it will come to mature in the next 5 to 10 years! If the Segway would have been started that way, would it have become more popular? I do not know, but think such competitions can spur development of innovations faster and think we should have that for this man drone as well. So my idea is only to show it can work (Proof of Concept) to generate PR to come to that step of guys who started Tesla, BYD or Google driverless tech consider to set out such competition.

Soon will talk with Delft University on this, but think we should have teams from MIT or other US universities too! Same is true for other top universities in Asia, LAC and other regions!

That's also why I am proud that this is a global forum!

Best Winfried
 

FerdinandK

FerdinandK

Member
Of course this topic is hot, and for sure you are not the only one (the only group) that are on it right now.

Just some basic math

payload 80kg, therefore a proper setup is about 1:1:1 so 80kg payload, 80kg batteries, 80kg copter, now since we all are super skilled (and for simplicity) we reduce to 80kg payload, 60kg battery and 60kg copter. -> 200kg AUW (no safety, no bkup, no parachute, ...)

60kg battery means about 6000$ and is about 10KWh energy you have onboard

200kg AUW means about 20KW electric energy on average (conservative setup, no super (efficient) props) for a octo this gives 2,5kw average 5kw peak per motor. If I would do such a build I would go for an X16 (more safety) here it would be 1,25kw average, 2,5kw peak per motor.

Following the X16, 1,25kw average, 2,5kw peak per motor, you need for 40V System Voltage, there is about 30A average 60A peak per motor.

So assuming 1000$ for each powertraing give 16000$ for the powertrain, 10000 for the frame, my first estimation on the material costs with assembly would be 30.000$ (if everything is clear and development finished).

Now, as you did, assuming 1000units, this gives 30 Millions for material, 30Million for development, testing, validation, quality, 40 Million profit -> 100 Million $ project (100k$ oer unit selling price). This is what would sound reasonable to me, and be sure this is what investors will attract.
Of course you can strip this down to 10units
gives 300k for material (and assembly), 300k for development, testing, validation, quality, 400k profit -> 1Million $ project. To me development, testing, validation in a commercial environment has only 3 man-year available which is nothing. Investors will say, "not worth the risk", meaning, that for that little money the can invest, risk evaluation, and what else they would now start to quantify and qualify the risk and the insurances it is not worth the effort. (That sounds crazy, but it is a matter of fact).

But anyhow, if this project should continue, you have to get such a unit in the air, otherwise the project is done, or another one (group) will do it for you.

Opensource is a great idea, but typically opensource ends where the $ comes in. Since the best opensource-friends convert to enemies within seconds when it comes down to who gets how much when everything is sold. But the worst thing that can happen is, you cannot even sell it, because you have used/you are using "opensource" IP and it is not clear how to resolve the IP issues.

best regards
Ferdinand
 

W

winfried

Member
Dear Ferdinand,

Let me have a direct reply in your text! Hope you can have a look at my calcs below or on my website? Best regards, Winfried, PS What is your activity in multicopters, professional diy, you have experience in large XX multicopters it seems?




FerdinandK said:
Of course this topic is hot, and for sure you are not the only one (the only group) that are on it right now.Correct we are not the only group who..

Just some basic math

payload 80kg, therefore a proper setup is about 1:1:1 so 80kg payload, 80kg batteries, 80kg copter, now since we all are super skilled (and for simplicity) we reduce to 80kg payload, 60kg battery and 60kg copter. -> 200kg AUW (no safety, no bkup, no parachute, ...) I work 80 kg payload with 27 kg craft and the 47 kg batteries.

60kg battery means about 6000$ Correct!!and is about 10KWh energy you have onboard I used (used 6 kWh!) HK (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...y_nano_tech_5000mah_4S_65_130C_Lipo_Pack.html)

200kg AUW means about 20KW electric energy on average (conservative setup, no super (efficient) props) for a octo this gives 2,5kw average 5kw peak per motor. If I would do such a build I would go for an X16 (more safety) here it would be 1,25kw average, 2,5kw peak per motor. The 16 configuration is already in place in the e-volo See you tube and was also an inspiration to me! But it became a helicopter shape!

Following the X16, 1,25kw average, 2,5kw peak per motor, you need for 40V System Voltage, there is about 30A average 60A peak per motor. I plan to use 55 V

So assuming 1000$ for each powertraing give 16000$ for the powertrain, 10000 for the frame, my first estimation on the material costs with assembly would be 30.000$ (if everything is clear and development finished). Check my website on the prices of different components!

Now, as you did, assuming 1000units, this gives 30 Millions for material, 30Million for development, testing, validation, quality, 40 Million profit -> 100 Million $ project (100k$ oer unit selling price). This is what would sound reasonable to me, and be sure this is what investors will attract. You are right if that would be the idea!

Of course you can strip this down to 10units
gives 300k for material (and assembly), 300k for development, testing, validation, quality, 400k profit -> 1Million $ project. To me development, testing, validation in a commercial environment has only 3 man-year available which is nothing. Yes should be quicker to make the proof of concept work and PR! Investors will say, "not worth the risk", meaning, that for that little money the can invest, risk evaluation, and what else they would now start to quantify and qualify the risk and the insurances it is not worth the effort. (That sounds crazy, but it is a matter of fact). I know indeed!

But anyhow, if this project should continue, you have to get such a unit in the air, otherwise the project is done, or another one (group) will do it for you. That's correct!

Opensource is a great idea, but typically opensource ends where the $ comes in. Since the best opensource-friends convert to enemies within seconds when it comes down to who gets how much when everything is sold. But the worst thing that can happen is, you cannot even sell it, because you have used/you are using "opensource" IP and it is not clear how to resolve the IP issues. The thing is that such IP issues might work in the development of the craft eg safety systems, battery enhancement, etc.. On the other hand these IP issues have been resolved with many open source software products. But still I believe in such movements of teams in competition, Thinking on it: did Bill Gates in his garage stop his effort? Did other guys? No let's see if this time still allows people to live their dreams having riskful open source, crowd funding etc..


best regards
Ferdinand
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FerdinandK

FerdinandK

Member
Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, ... is just the opposite of open source.

Counted props again on the e-volo, and I count 18 (Hex with 3 Motors per boom)

Let´s compare next summer ;)

best regards
Ferdinand
(YACCN yet another copter crazy nerd)
 



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