In a Pickle... Advice Much Appreciated.

[smootheye]

I searched the site for answers before posting but no luck, so hope I don't step on any toes...

I had plans to build a DJI F550 w/ a DJI Zenmuse H3-3D Gimbal to mount a GoPro Hero 4 Black to.
(I'm open to all advice on smoothest & latest landing gear/gimbal/props, etc configurations for the F550)

I came across a fella selling his F550 that was already set up for a specific camera (see pics). So I bought it. Hope I made the right decision.

Specs:
-Naza V1 (I believe) Controller w/ GPS
-Spectrum DX8 Transmitter
-Spectrum Telemetry Altimeter
-iPower Motors
-Graupner 10.5 inch props

-AG550 Landing Gear
-AG550v2 2-Axis Gimbal
-AG550v2 Yoke and IMS Upgrade

Main questions are:
What are your thoughts on this landing gear/gimbal?
Will it work well w/ GoPro Hero 4Black?
Should I upgrade Naza V2?

Will this be an amazing vehicle to capture spectacular video footage with?

I've flown it once (I'm a decent pilot I think) and upon a fairly rapid decent it wobbles. Balance the props maybe??



Thanks in advance for your advice!

Link to album: (hope I did this correctly)
http://s238.photobucket.com/user/sissy545/library/DJI F550 Hexacopter

 

[SJBrit]

That "wobble on decent" is called "vortex ring state" (VRS) - lots of discussion on here and elsewhere about it if you want to learn more. Basically it's a common symptom of trying to descend through your own prop downwash and can affect any rotor-craft, so it's not a problem with this rig.

 

[Bartman]

<insert name here>

It's hard to tell if that's a NAZA Lite or a V1. The helicopter itself looks fine and they all will wobble if you try to bring them down too quickly. Coaxial heli's will tolerate a quick descent better, fwiw.

As for the gimbal, you asked "Will this be an amazing vehicle to capture spectacular video footage with?".....it all depends on what you call spectacular footage. The gimbal's two axes are servo driven which has it's good and bad points. Unfortunately, for great video a servo driven gimbal is more of a bad point and the stabilization from the NAZA isn't much help.

You have a couple of options, IMHO, pull that gimbal and replace it with a DJI H3-2D or -3D. This will require you to upgrade the PMU to the NAZA-V2 PMU so that the NAZA can interact with the gimbal. The new gimbal will work with your GoPro and, yes, it will provide spectacular video footage.

You can also install a Hoverfly GIMBAL controller to stabilize the camera mount (you should be able to find one used for $75 or less at this point) which should do a better job than the NAZA can do but the downside to this is that you'll still have a servo driven mount which isn't optimum at this time for video and installing the GIMBAL and setting it up won't be a beginner-grade project so it will depend on what your skills are and how tencious you can be.

How much did you pay for the heli if you don't mind me asking? If you got a great deal on it then you're not in a bad position to replace the gimbal and keep moving.

 

[Bartman]

That "wobble on decent" is called "vortex ring state" (VRS) - lots of discussion on here and elsewhere about it if you want to learn more. Basically it's a common symptom of trying to descend through your own prop downwash and can affect any rotor-craft, so it's not a problem with this rig.

descending through prop-wash is part of it. it also has to do with the fact that the flight controller is tuned for hovering and flying. Response rates that make hovering perfectly stable aren't enough when the throttle is greatly reduced so the heli tends to be under-controlled and the wobbling happens.

 

[SJBrit]

descending through prop-wash is part of it. it also has to do with the fact that the flight controller is tuned for hovering and flying. Response rates that make hovering perfectly stable aren't enough when the throttle is greatly reduced so the heli tends to be under-controlled and the wobbling happens.

Yes, very true. Even a controlled non-VRS descent can seem a bit dodgy. I always descend in a spiral so I have some lateral movement which creates more control authority and gets you out of that VRS column.

 

[smootheye]

<insert name here>

It's hard to tell if that's a NAZA Lite or a V1. The helicopter itself looks fine and they all will wobble if you try to bring them down too quickly. Coaxial heli's will tolerate a quick descent better, fwiw.

As for the gimbal, you asked "Will this be an amazing vehicle to capture spectacular video footage with?".....it all depends on what you call spectacular footage. The gimbal's two axes are servo driven which has it's good and bad points. Unfortunately, for great video a servo driven gimbal is more of a bad point and the stabilization from the NAZA isn't much help.

You have a couple of options, IMHO, pull that gimbal and replace it with a DJI H3-2D or -3D. This will require you to upgrade the PMU to the NAZA-V2 PMU so that the NAZA can interact with the gimbal. The new gimbal will work with your GoPro and, yes, it will provide spectacular video footage.

You can also install a Hoverfly GIMBAL controller to stabilize the camera mount (you should be able to find one used for $75 or less at this point) which should do a better job than the NAZA can do but the downside to this is that you'll still have a servo driven mount which isn't optimum at this time for video and installing the GIMBAL and setting it up won't be a beginner-grade project so it will depend on what your skills are and how tencious you can be.

How much did you pay for the heli if you don't mind me asking? If you got a great deal on it then you're not in a bad position to replace the gimbal and keep moving.

I paid $1000 for everything including transmitter, (2) Hyperion 4s 5000mah batteries w/ EOSO 6060i charger, original boxes, soldering iron, and more. I mean he included everything. He said that he had $2800 invested. Did I make out like a bandit or was it a so so deal?

Its a NAZA-V1. My plan was to sell the current gimbal setup and install the H3-3D gimbal and NAZA-V2 like you suggested. Do you think that would be the best configuration? Will it work with the current landing gear? Or should I sell the landing gear/gimbal as a set?

What do you this gimbal is worth? Will it sell?

Thanks for for your advice!

 

[smootheye]

Yes, very true. Even a controlled non-VRS descent can seem a bit dodgy. I always descend in a spiral so I have some lateral movement which creates more control authority and gets you out of that VRS column.

Ah yes, I did learn about descending in a spiral. Forgot about that. I'll give it a try. I assumed I needed to balance the props or something.

 

[SJBrit]

I assumed I needed to balance the props or something.

Well, that may be true - it's certainly worth getting a prop balancer and checking them if they are used props (or even brand new!)

 

[Roto5411]

Smootheye, I put cheap plastic gear (M200 Carefree Crab landing gear) from Hobby King International on my F550 and a Tarot 2D gimbal under the nose for my Hero 3. Added a PMU and iOSD to my NAZA V2 and downlinking with a Boscam 600mW transmitter. With a Zippy 4C 8000mAH LiPo I'm at about 5.6lbs. I'm getting 16 minutes of actual flight and the battery doesn't even get hot. I tried the same kind of heavy gear you have and it pushed my weight to 6.2 pounds and the machine was working too hard and was flying like a heavy brick! The plastic gear is inexpensive, light and rugged because it flexes. I attached a spare large carbon fiber plate to the gear rails, then using double stick tape and plastic ties secured the bottom 550 plate to that carbon fiber plate to save weight. I'm getting real smooth video with this setup.View attachment 21726

 

[smootheye]

Smootheye, I put cheap plastic gear (M200 Carefree Crab landing gear) from Hobby King International on my F550 and a Tarot 2D gimbal under the nose for my Hero 3. Added a PMU and iOSD to my NAZA V2 and downlinking with a Boscam 600mW transmitter. With a Zippy 4C 8000mAH LiPo I'm at about 5.6lbs. I'm getting 16 minutes of actual flight and the battery doesn't even get hot. I tried the same kind of heavy gear you have and it pushed my weight to 6.2 pounds and the machine was working too hard and was flying like a heavy brick! The plastic gear is inexpensive, light and rugged because it flexes. I attached a spare large carbon fiber plate to the gear rails, then using double stick tape and plastic ties secured the bottom 550 plate to that carbon fiber plate to save weight. I'm getting real smooth video with this setup.View attachment 21726

Yes! That's the exact setup I had in mind, especially the gear rails. Thanks for the info. I really want that GoPro as far forward as I can get it. Don't want to deal w/ rotors & landing gear in the shots if at all possible. Don't want to crop out rotors from videos. Would also like to shed as much weight as I can as well.

I'll definitely check out your FPV setup. I'd like to pick your brain if you don't mind. Do you have any YouTube videos?

 

[Roto5411]

With this setup I don't get any rotors in the video frame unless I tilt the camera nearly all the way up or heavily nose it over.
Check out a clip of my flight from this afternoon. At several points I had the stick all the way forward.

 

[Roto5411]

Smootheye, I forgot to mention that for FPV I am using a Devo 7 transmitter and the Storm FPV Combo from HeliPal. I just checked their web site and see that the screen I bought apparently is not offered anymore. Mine has two receiver antennas and has a built-in rechargeable battery (highly recommend an internal battery). The 500mW transmitter that comes in the package is not the greatest unit. I had trouble with the power connector, tried re-soldering it and finally it stopped working. I now have Boscam 600mW 5.8g transmitters on each of my machines, and they are fine except channel 32 on each unit doesn't line up on the receiver! Apparently the frequency alignment of these cheap Chinese units is not the greatest! With the addition of a Mini iOSD I have the screen telemetry and find myself using the screen for flying more and more, especially as I get up to my software set 122 meter height limit. Another interesting item about the height limit: you can full throttle up to 122 meters and when the machine reaches that height you will hear the motors make a "wowhhhhh" sound then return to normal. Its going as high as its going to go and you can keep the throttle pushed up but it won't go any higher. A pretty neat feature.

 

[smootheye]

That is a smart feature. It'll keep me out of trouble. In your video above, what was the highest altitude you reached?

Where are you located? Isn't Helipal out of Hong Kong? What was the shipping time like? Or maybe they have a warehouse in the states?

I am still starting out. Just to clarify, The video that you're recording and the video you view through FPV both go through the same (GoPro in your case) camera?
So you see exactly what you're recording?

 

[Y0urDaddy]

Hey Smootheye...

I see you are in Scottsdale, I am actually in Mesa so we are not too far from each other. I read a bit through your post & ironically I just ordered a basic F550 air frame yesterday. I have been flying an F450 for a little while now but I have mine set up for mainly FPV. I had planned to mount a gopro to the F450, but I decided that a 550 would likely be a better video/photo platform.

In the picture you posted that flight controller looks like my Naza lite, but it is kind of hard to tell. I believe it does say Naza Lite on the top of mine but I don't have it in front of me right now.

I have not noticed too much wobble whit my quad when I have it out, the main thing I see is that it seems slow to get a GPS lock a lot of times. Normally when I take it out & first lift off the quad wants to fly forward for some reason vs. holding its position. I re-calibrated my compass yesterday & that seemed to help out. I have noticed that the longer I have it in the air the better it will hold its position.

I get about 10mins of fly time out of the F450 with a 3s pack. overall it is fun to take out and fly, I just don't have the best place to fly it and all.

BTW... If you happen to hear of any other folks in AZ who are flying mulit-rotors shoot me a PM or something. The local hobby shop I normally go to has told me of some but so far I have not seen anyone else at the places they mentioned.

 

[Roto5411]

Smootheye,
If memory serves I was flying somewhere around 50 meters. I'm in the north DFW area. Yes HeliPal is out of Hong Kong. I've ordered a bunch of stuff from them and they are really good. Takes about two to three weeks to get their stuff. Biggest holdup in shipping is Customs in New Jersey!
The video that is displayed on my viewscreen is straight from the GoPro. I mounted a Hero 2 in a swivel hard mount on my F450. The video out goes straight to the Boscam transmitter and all I see on my FPV screen is what the camera sees. On my F550, the camera output goes direct to the Mini iOSD, then out to the transmitter. The iOSD provides the overlay displaying the flight information.View attachment 21777 View attachment 21777 View attachment 21778 View attachment 21777 View attachment 21778 View attachment 21779

 

[smootheye]

Wow, thanks so much for taking the time to share the close up pics. It really helps.

I had this in mind to eliminate the prop/landing-gear issue:
http://www.helipal.com/camera-position-kit-660mm.html

I think it will make the camera more vulnerable in a crash or even off-balance landing but I really like the idea.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Roto5411]

Smootheye,
I had looked at that kit just before you posted a link to it. I considered trying that kit on my second bare bones Wookong M equipped F550, but for now I just hard mounted a Black Friday Hero 3+ Silver purchase on the underbelly. (See photos below). Last month, I tried those long 660mm rails on my main F550, mounting the Tarot gimbal way out in front. I got a lot of vibration in the video plus its much harder to get the CG right so I switched back to the shorter rails and mounted the gimbal further in. I think the video quality is much better now.View attachment 21910 View attachment 21911

 

[Roto5411]

BTW: the machine as shown above is 4.2 lbs. It smokes!!! Eventually I will probably put a gimbal on it, but this hobby is like an endless hole in the air in which man pours money, and one must occasionally restrain theyself. For now, I will just settle for shaky video with two legs blocking the edge of each frame. But if I augger it in, I should have some good video to show!!!

 

[smootheye]

BTW: the machine as shown above is 4.2 lbs. It smokes!!! Eventually I will probably put a gimbal on it, but this hobby is like an endless hole in the air in which man pours money, and one must occasionally restrain theyself. For now, I will just settle for shaky video with two legs blocking the edge of each frame. But if I augger it in, I should have some good video to show!!!

Haha. Your last post was spot on. It would be much easier to simply throw money into the air... at least it would come back down in one piece! I thought I had the financing all figured out but the more time that passes the less $$ I have!

Losing power @ 50ft & smashing into the ground the other day didn't help my situation much either. Still have know idea how I lost power. Luckily I didn't have landing gear/gimbal/camera attached. Two broken legs, GPS stand, both main boards, and 3 props I think. Would you believe that an entire F550 (broken down) fits inside of a 1-gallon ziploc bag?! New Parts should arrive this week.

 

[Roto5411]

Oh WOW, I feel your pain Sir. I destroyed a 550 back in September while putting it into trees at full speed. I think I had a motor get to hot and seize up. Problem is you have a mere second to react and DO SOMETHING....and what I did was dead wrong!
I had a prop break off today while flying the 550 pictured above. I was luckily in a hover at about 10 feet. I dumped the power and suffered a broken arm and two gear struts. I will post a video when I get home and can edit the video.