General Camera mount theory (open discussion)

DennyR

Active Member
This is an area where there are many misconceptions about what is required to keep a camera steady in the air. The level at which people will go to achieving perfection is a personal one and for most of us the commitment has to be balanced with that which is affordable and practical. It is also horses for courses, many will be happy just producing their own vimeo or utube streams. Others may need broadcast TV or even Cinematic quality rushes. The fact is that most modern IS lens, when mounted vibration free, can give a quality that will suffice for a lot of general uses without any moving camera mount at all.

As a starter, here are some observations. Most people will have invested heavily in an under-slung type of camera mount. It is a very practical solution but not altogether an ideal one. In an effort to gain the best possible results lets consider some facts. If you hung a servo motor in space and then attached a weight of equal mass to the output arm you would get an opposite and equal reaction. i.e. the both components would move in opposition to each other. So, based on that fact. If you place a heavy camera on a platform and try to move it you will get a reaction in the opposite direction. So to stop that occurring we need a fairly large mass in the form of a camera mount. That means additional weight which we don't want. So one thing that can be done to reduce some of that unwanted reaction is to make sure that the axis of movements passes thro. the cameras center of mass.

Checking out many videos and posts it seems that the most common problem is that of vibration. So we attach our mount to the model with silicon or rubber soft mounts. whereas that cures one problem it now introduces another. As the camera moves about it causes our friend to reappear. (the opposite reaction force). So to reduce that effect we need to place our soft mounts as far apart as possible. The worlds best electronic camera mounts use five axis of stabilization but that is not really what we need here because we already have what is termed an outer axis - the model itself. It is very good in the Z axis (yaw) and as such we can use the model to steer the camera in that axis. So for pitch (nick) and roll we tend to use the two outputs from the MK FC. But these outputs use gyros that are 300 degrees/sec (Full scale range) which have an output of only 2 mv/deg./sec. which will oscillate long before we get to sensible stabilization for an inner axis. Alternatively a gyro that is only 20 deg/sec. (full scale range) has an output of 50 mv/deg/sec and is not expensive as it is the type used inside many IS camera lenses. So that's it for a starter, hopefully you guys can add your own theories and share your experiences.
 
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Droider

Drone Enthusiast
Hi DennyR

I have just built and fitted a HiSiteII to my ADX3. Not really very satisfactoiry but I will continue with my tests and report my findings at the weekend

Thanks for opening the discussion.

Dave
 

Cabe

Member
Gyro's will only help stabilise against rotational (pitch, roll, yaw) where as you will almost certainly need the to take into account linear actuations (with input from an accelerometer) to counter the motion in 3d space along the axis. IE 6 DOF/DOM.
 
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DennyR

Active Member
I know Portsmouth well, I used to tow banners all around the place with my old Wilga. Out of Goodwood and Shoreham. That was seven years ago and I haven't been back since. Sometimes miss the place. But the weather here in Cyprus is a little warmer. I can fly without gloves for a start.
 


Droider

Drone Enthusiast
Yeha.. PhotoHigher Pro Mini is availibe.. well in limited amounts so I got one on the way.. well I think.. I will report on the HiSiteII but it wont be a good one I can tell u that. I just hope the Pro Mini lives up to my expectations
 

mbsteed

aerial video centric
After doing some experiments - one problem with digital servos directly controlling movement of an axis is that the servo itself introduces jittering. One probably needs gears or belts to compensate - I wonder if analog servos would work better. Droider, I will look forward to your report on the PhotoHigher Pro Mini.
 

Since this is a discussion about camera mount theory, I am wondering if anyone has heard of using titanium plate instead of CF or G10? Titanium is supper strong and light. Is there something I am missing besides the fact that a CNC router table won't cut it?
 

jes1111

Active Member
Since this is a discussion about camera mount theory, I am wondering if anyone has heard of using titanium plate instead of CF or G10? Titanium is supper strong and light. Is there something I am missing besides the fact that a CNC router table won't cut it?
Titanium may give you rigidity, but there are easier, cheaper ways. The stiffness of any material is proportional to the cube of its thickness. So use a cheaper, easier material but simply make it thicker. This is the idea behind the now-common construction technique of spacing two parallel plates with spacers - you are increasing (if done right) the effective thickness of the material and therefore its stiffness. It's also the reason to use sandwich composites - relatively thin outer layers of aluminium, CF, GF, etc. enclosing a core of honeycomb, foam, balsa, etc.
 

thepelell

Member
has anybody worked on a mechanically stabilized camera mount?
i was thinking of hanging the camera with a uniball and using 4 shock absorbers to stop the camera from swinging too much. Of course there will be lots of trial and error with positioning and strength of absorbers, but the only gimbal i have tried ( jakub gopro mount) and many videos i have watched online all give a very unnatural and over-reacted response to my eyes. I have stopped using the gimbal with my gopro and just fly as smooth as possible and let Mercalli 2 do the rest. It's ok with fisheye of gopro, but i won't get away with it once i am ready to put a dslr in the air.
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
@tahoelight- I've got a mount flying that I made from aluminum using tig to weld it together. with the servos turned off it's damn near perfect with a T2i and the kit lens. The G10/CF mounts seem to be after getting a weight advantage but they add lots back just to hold the flat plate parts together. I expect my mount to outlive me and never loosen up from vibrations.

my problem now is the camera tilt mechanism. with a belt and pulley arrangement there is constant tension on the servo output shaft and it's making the servo jitter and will eventually wear it out. i spoke to Hitec and I can go with a good quality analog servo (I swapped out the expensive digital with an old beater analog from my parts bin and it's much better but I expect an early death from the work load) which won't jitter as much from the constant tension but then it'll let the mount jitter from a greater deadband. I've got parts on order and a new revision of the mount in the works after spending some time looking at my old bashed up MKTR and how it drove the tilt function. i originally went with a stock servo and pulley arrangement but I'm finding to really quiet down the video in tilt there's got to be a high gear ratio, an external potentiometer, and the drive servo has to be perfectly happy so as not to upset the balance of an otherwise stable mount.

@thepelell -- what flight controller are you using? the camera control outputs can be tuned to either fully stabilize the mounts or you can loosen up the numbers so the mount will appear to be flying with the kopter.
 

jes1111

Active Member
I agree - the servo's output shaft should not be supporting the belt's tension. The job should be given to two ball bearings, one each side of the drive pulley (or as a spaced pair with a cantilever shaft). Mount the shaft and then attach the servo (solidly, but using the play available at its mounting points to ensure there is no radial load on the front bearing). And if you want the best possible performance, they should be high-grade bearings and installed with "pre-load" on them. On belts, the MXL type are not designed for precision positioning applications. Better to seek out belts/pulleys like the 2GT and 3GT series from Misumi - designed for precision bidirectional operation with very low backlash. In fact Misumi (link in supplier list) is a great place to go if you want to build the dog's whatsits of gimbals.
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
no more belts. i'm going with the shaft drive from a BMW motorcycle, it'll be a but heavy but reliable as hell and good for 100 hp.

jk. did i really need to say JK?
 

jes1111

Active Member
Good idea - but you'll need that torsion bar in there to stop that slight tail lift on acceleration ;)

J (a Beemer Boy)
 


tombrown1

Member
This topic has been all consuming for me lately.

I don't think I have vibration issues, but rather shaking issues ( I know, semantics).

General philosophical question:

Do you want the gimbal attached to the mr as firmly as possible, or do you want a fair amount of play so that the mr gyrations won't affect the gimbal as much?

Im quite certain I've eliminated all higher end vibes, but it seems like when my mr shakes it shakes the gimbal too, and thus the camera. Again, this isn't a jello type vibe, but a shaking of the roll on the camera.

To take it to the extreme, what if the gimbal were held from a string? Would that eliminate this problem? What if it were attached firmly by a wide, solid mount?

Curious to hear thoughts on this.

Best,

Tom
 

Breezemont

Member
has anybody worked on a mechanically stabilized camera mount?
i was thinking of hanging the camera with a uniball and using 4 shock absorbers to stop the camera from swinging too much. Of course there will be lots of trial and error with positioning and strength of absorbers, but the only gimbal i have tried ( jakub gopro mount) and many videos i have watched online all give a very unnatural and over-reacted response to my eyes. I have stopped using the gimbal with my gopro and just fly as smooth as possible and let Mercalli 2 do the rest. It's ok with fisheye of gopro, but i won't get away with it once i am ready to put a dslr in the air.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1640731
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1567054
 




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