F450 +Naza Newbie Help Please - having problems with 1st flight - really unstable!

[wow400]

Hi all from the sunny UK,
first off, thanks for all the help that's been given to others which has helped me enormously in building my Flamewheel!
Am completely new to R/C so it's been a real 'adventure' getting even this far....

I've been following plenty of threads along the way wrt the build, the setup, the Tx/Rx etc & finally, setting the 450 up for the 1st flight.

I've set up the Naza with the assistant like this :View attachment 3518View attachment 3519View attachment 3520View attachment 3521


which seems to correspond with what others have set up.

My Tx / Rx (Spektrum Dx7s & AR8000) have been set up thus:


View attachment 3524 View attachment 3525

which gives me the correct Atti / Manual selection + the switched failsafe.
Everything else on the TX is stock - no expo (not even looked that up to see what it does yet!), nada.
I am using the stock 8" props + a Turnigy 4s 3000 LiPo

After my first few attempts at getting airborne, I came back indoors & disassembled the 450 to what you can see here -
View attachment 3522View attachment 3523

to prove to myself that the Naza is facing the correct way & no obvious screw ups!

I have triple checked that the motors are going :
1. (top right red arm) counter clockwise with 8045 prop
2. (top left red arm) clockwise with 8045R prop
3. (bottom left white arm) counter clockwise with 8045 prop
4. (bottom right white arm) clockwise with 8045R prop

I also got the other half to check the direction of rotation too just to make sure I wasn't being an idiot!!!!

On startup, LED check colours as expected, in Atti mode (flashing yellow), as I increase throttle, the craft lifts more on one side than the other then eventually flips.
If I hold on to the 450 & mess with the elevator & aileron on Tx, the 450 seems to respond as expected - I'm too cautions to give it too much throttle as it pulls pretty heavily!
I can feel the Naza trying to correct the craft if I move it around but very hard to feel if it is the correct sense.

I was expecting the copter to lift pretty stabilised but instead it just wants to flip (& has done so 4 or 5 times!).
The weather is warm & no breeze / wind at all.
I have tried the stock / default gains + the ones you see above & neither seem to make any difference.
Oh, have only flipped it onto grass from 0 height so wouldn't think the Naza is damaged? (well, not by me anyway!).

There has got to be something I'm missing - am I meant to be stirring the Tx sticks madly, trying to keep this thing level?
Do I give it loads of power to get away from the ground & see what happens (kinda scared to try this & see this $$$ kit disintegrate!)

Or is there something you can see wrong in my setup?

I'm going mad here trying to figure out what is up!!

Thanks for any help you guys can give,

Kind regards,

Nic

 

[mailman35]

the red arms are pointing forward according to the orientation of the naza.

 

[9nene]

look is ok ?
View attachment 3529

 

[mailman35]

the direction looks right, and you have checked the prop direction, as well as the correct props. and usually if they arent set the right way then the thing wont even take off.
have you tried contacting the reseller that you got the unit from?

 

[swisser]

Whereabouts in the UK are you? Sounds to me like what you really need is someone who has flown a Naza or Wookong M before. 9 (or more) times out of 10 these problems are a function of someone getting the output channels/props/wiring/orientation mixed up, but it sounds like you've checked that pretty thoroughly. It's really hard to say if yours is behaving properly or not just by reading the description. Hanging on to it and pushing the sticks is a poor way to judge it in my experience. What you can try, if you're careful, is putting it on the floor and bringing the throttles up to a good amount above idle but not enough to take off. Now move the sticks very gently in each direction and see if it responds accordingly - not enough to lift the skids off the ground, just enough to see a slight inclination. But be careful - it's tricky to not overdo, flip and likely break your props.

One thought, though they're all spinning in the right direction with the right prop, are you absolutely and completely certain you've got the right motors attached to the right outputs? You didn't mention checking it in your post.

 

[fayrwerks]

what did you use to tape the MC to the frame? might wanna double/triple check the rx to mc connectors...

 

[Bella7821]

Just a shot in the dark but are all your motors going the right direction. When I built mine, 3 of the motors were going the wrong way although all the props were placed correctly.
I tested mine by doing the CSC and doing it six times watching one prop each tine to see if each motor was turning the right direction.
If not, just switch any two of the three wires on the ESC and the motor will turn the opposite direction.

 

[wow400]

Hi guys - many thanks for the response!
Swisser - I'm down by Gatwick airport, I know what you mean about someone who has flown a Zaza / WK before. I need to get down to my local flying club & see if anyoine there has any quad experience!

I'll see if I can find a smooth yet flip-friendly surface to try the slide tests to see how it's working.
I did check that the right motor is attached to the right output but I'm going to break the wiring down & start again to ensure that everything is where it's meant to be & there are no shorts / upside down connectors etc.

I used thin R/C double sided tape to stick the MC down - there is no movement there at all!

I do know for sure that the motors are rotating in the correct direction & even used a test subject (my wife!) to double check them against the manual in case I was getting confirmation bias!!

I'll re assemble today & have a go again at flying tomorrow & see what happens....

I'll let you all know 'cos I'm sure your all desperate to hear ;-)

Very many thanks again all,

Nic

 

[swisser]

I've no idea about your local flying clubs but I'm in central London (though not this weekend), and I have a Naza and a WKM, so if you want to hop on the Express I could meet you somewhere and try it out with you.

 

[wow400]

Thanks Swisser - very kind offer & if I can't get it up & running soon, I'll PM you & set up a meet!
I work for an airline so am not in the UK all that often though

Kind regards,

Nic

 

[wow400]

Well, after re-assembling it late last night, I managed to get a quick go in the garden & all is good!!!
It takes off without all the wobbling & threatening to flip unlike before

Trouble is, I don't reckon I changed anything at all so it's either an intermittent problem or something pretty subtle that I missed!!

So long as it doesn't happen again mid-flight, I'm a happy bunny.

Thanks again for all you suggestions etc,

Kind regards,

Nic

 

[hollywoodjoe67]

sounds like he needs to get it off the ground..i know when i throttle it up slowly it always leans to one side or another but once in the air, the naza steadies it up...gotta just get it off the ground then ull find the hovering sweet spot on the stick....if u just inch the throttle forward it will flip and flip and flip...gotta get it airborne, completely off the ground and let me know what it does...i have been at that stage and was scared as hell to go any further, but once airborne, the bird is steady as hell

 

[fayrwerks]

Nic,
not to scare you or something but might wanna check the rx to MC connectors... found a cut on one of my signal lead causing the inconsistency... better be safe than sorry.. but if its flying ok... old saying goes if its not broken why fix it... best of luck...

 

[wow400]

Thanks fayrwerks - what a nightmare trying to find a cut like that!!! Bloody intermittent faults!

hollywoodjoe67 - thanks for the advice - when it was unusable, it was really bad - I mean any amount of liftoff power caused it to flip or rotate itself about it's own axis!
When it was working OK - I know what you mean - it can be a bit twitchy around liftoff power but as soon as it's airborne, it settles down nicely

Anyway, I've got bigger problems now - I managed to cartwheel it in from about 20' - completely my fault - I was enjoying myself too much & found out that it really needs more than 50% power to recover from an almost upside down angle

Bang - one of the arms has snapped but everything else seems OK!

All I've got to do is find out where I can get a new arm 'cos all the suppliers in the UK don't seem to have any :-(

Might have to go further afield in Europe!

Thanks all again,

Nic

 

[RCNut]

Hi Nic.

Bad luck about the broken arm. Since it seems you're new at RC it might pay to leave it in ATTI mode until you get your orientation perfected. ATTI mode limits the angle you can obtain and returns it to level if you let the controls go.

As for new arms, if theyre out of stock in the UK you should be able to buy them anywhere in the world. I bought all my F450 bits through one of the DJI dealers in Hong Kong because their shipping was the most reasonable (but then AUS is closer to Hong Kong).

 

[yakjock]

Just my two pence worth but I have just completed my first quad a F450 with a Naza controller & I had a similar problem. I had the battery strapped to the bottom of the quad & when I connected it the quad was upside down I think this confused it as it tried to flip on takeoff & only hard right on the stick would let it stay level I landed it disconnected the battery & turned off the tx, turned on the tx reconnected the battery but with the quad the right way up & all was good. I re did the battery upside down to check if it happened again & it did so now I connect the battery with the quad the right ay up & don’t seem to have the problem anymore.

 

[wow400]

Hi guys - replaced the arm & have been flying & it works OK!
FWIW, it has only ever been flown in ATTI mode as the manual is waay to sensitive for me to use yet
No idea what happened but it's not happened again which is the main thing!

There seems to be a once-per-second type wobble in the hover which I imagine is just the gains that need setting up correctly.

It's a bit weird flying it without having a clearly defined front & back - half the time I'm barely using the rudder & just flying it sideways

Cheers,

Nic

 

[RCNut]

In calm weather you can wind the gains up pretty high, but you might need to reduce them in strong winds to prevent wobble. I'm currently running my gains at 175 and with Graupner 10" props its rock steady in most conditions. On the other hand, with the original DJI 10" props I got considerable wobble at gains of less than 135 in wind so the flexibility of the DJI props can exaggerate the wobble.

As for connecting the battery when the Naza isn't level, I haven't experience that issue. I have to lay mine in its side to connect the battery to the OSD power module which is mounted underneath and it always holds level after take off. I haven't tried connecting the battery while its upside down though, but I'm curious so I must try that this weekend and see what happens. I would have thought it would take its level-reference from when the motor start sequence is initialized.

 

[wow400]

Thanks RCNut - hope it's nice & sunny in Sydney at the mo!
I'm currently running gains of 145 with 4s & DJI 8" props - as I'm learning I'll probably stick with the stock props but get some Graupners when I'm a bit more competent!
When I was out, it was pretty still so I don't think it was the wind but I may be wrong (usually am!)

Which OSD power module do you use? Is it any good?

Thanks,

Nic

 

[RCNut]

Yes weather is good here and the long easter weekend is supposed to be fine and warm. Will be out flying FPV tomorrow morning for sure.

Ive run the same gains, props and battery as you currently are with no wobble so it may not be just the gains in your case, especially if its calm. I found the 8" DJI props were pretty stable. If youre running just the basic Quad and no addons or cameras you should be able to fly just as well on 3S. Have you tried it with 3S to see if it makes a difference? It may be wobbling on 4S because its light (underloaded). I only moved to 4S with the 8" DJI props when I added extra weight with cameras and video systems. Now Im on the 10" Graupners Im back to 3S even with all the extra load its carrying and there's plenty of power.

Im using the Apache OSD system which has a power module for monitoring the battery and current draw. It seems to work pretty well. I also have the GPS module so Im getting distance and direction to home as well as altitude, speed and compass heading. It was a little over $100 at HobbyKing (they sell it as the HobbyKing OSD system). Its probably not fantastic compared to some systems but it does exactly what I wanted - to know how far I am from my takeoff point so I can stay within range and to find my way home if I'm in unfamiliar surroundings. For that it works well. Plus it monitors my battery volts so I know when to fly home.

Ian