4K, the future standard

Bartman

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
With all the talk of new "4K" cameras I set out to learn a little about it. I had originally thought it was a data throughput standard, like a bandwidth to the recording media or sorts but I was wrong! Here's an article that explains it pretty well. The key point I think for those of us to never produce for the "Big screen", video recorded in 4K and then reduced for upload and display on the internet will ultimately look better than video shot straight onto lesser formats. I'm not an expert here, just trying to work my way through it so I leave this discussion for the experts to weight in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution


Bart
 

kloner

kloner

Aerial DP
the need for 4k is the whole reason we have to fly reds........ all of ces was about 4k tv's again so yea, it's coming like a freight train.

you know how you only need so many megapixel to make a decent looking picture, but if the megapixel is higher the picture jut looks clearer...... this is a lot like that even now but soon the 1080 stuff won't have any value in markets we deal with. the reds isn't even enough not being 4 4 4 like alexa. i think the epic is 4 2 2 and a hero is 4 2 1 but only 15 fps...
 

DucktileMedia

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
I say it's mostly marketing. I'd be happy if streaming 1080p was no longer an issue on any server. Even with my computer and fast internet things like YT and Vimeo are constantly bogged down. If you are doing things on the big screen I can understand. A 4k tv is ridiculous! I have a pioneer plasma that is 7 years old and I love it! I cant stand watching my friends 1080p 240 hz led lcd tv. It makes every movie look like un edited footage. Great for the news or sports but on movies it sucks. It used to be that part of the beauty and artistic freedom to a movie was that it wasnt so perfect. It's why everyone hated the Hobbit in 48fps. Things can actually be too good. A little motion blur and softness can be a nice thing.
 


DucktileMedia

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
It's quite annoying because instead of giving us higher frame rates, better pixels, more DR, higher bit rates......they sell us on technology that is not needed. it's like computers. We have a super computer if you were to run the apps from a few years ago. but they utilize the new tech to the point that your new computer is never really that much faster, it just runs the new software at the same speeds. Sorta...but you get the idea.
 

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Str8 Up

Member
kloner said:
you know how you only need so many megapixel to make a decent looking picture, but if the megapixel is higher the picture jut looks clearer...... this is a lot like that even now but soon the 1080 stuff won't have any value in markets we deal with. the reds isn't even enough not being 4 4 4 like alexa. i think the epic is 4 2 2 and a hero is 4 2 1 but only 15 fps...
Click to expand...

i have owned Reds for several years now and to say Alexa is higher resolution at 4:4:4 than Epic tells me you don't really understand how either camera works and so are spreading misinformation. Both are great cameras but go about making images by way of very different paths. Red shoots for highest resolution with minimal aliasing (3 times the Alexa). The Alexa has a built in low-contrast filter as part of the OLPF/IR filter stack. Many directors we have worked with like Roger Deakins prefer that particular look and a good colorist can add a quarter soft or similar which will give a close approximation on the Epic if desired. The main reason they like the Alexa is due to how it renders skin tones. this isn't much of an issue for aerials. Roger and others are just fine using the Epic for aerials so your comment about Reds not being enough is BS from where I sit.
 

Q

Quinton

Active Member
I am no expert but I believe 1080 is here for quite a while yet.
If you are shooting movies for the cinema then yes you may need 4,5,6k but even TV stuff at the moment is still pretty crap as its compressed.
Here in the UK you actually have to pay extra for HD channels, all the normal stuff that is apparently HD is not even progressive, its interlaced.

4k is great if you want to recompose a shot and zoom in for 1080 and not lose quality, but other than that there is much more they can do with HD to make it better first.
There is too much of a bottleneck at the moment, and unless you own your own super computer and have LOTS of storage, the likes of us who aren't shooting big screen movies have no need at all for 4K
Let the camera manufacturers give us better DR and colour space first.

One of the reason why I like Black Magic even though they dont stick to their shipping dates, is they are trying something different that all the others have failed to do.
Our cameras could be (and are) much better than they are now, but the manufacturers see profits before better images.

Look at what magic lantern has done with the Canon, now you imagine what Canon "could" give us if they didn't have to pay their share holders.
I love to read all the latest pixel peeping stuff and get to grips with it, but tbh 99% of the general public couldn't tell the difference between a film shot with an iphone or an alexa if you didn't point it out to them.
HD will be here for quite a while yet, its not to say people wont be watching their 4k TVs very soon, but tbh most of the stuff they watch wont be in 4K anyhow, so its a feel good factor the same way TV with HD has been for the past 5 years.

FWIW I actually liked the hobbit in 3D 48fps as its the only 3d film that didn't make me squint or give me a headache :)
Motion blur is what people have been used to now for decades, and if everything was shot in higher frame rate then they would consider it the norm as their brain would get used to it.
 

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sk8brd

Member
reds are plenty for any production and don't forget 6k dragon, freefly just flew one check their Facebook looks no different then a gh3 on vimeo-lol. people choose cams for other factors then just image quality a c500 was flown on a wolf of wall street. check this gem for under 2k$ -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHKJ5eE7I1k - Arial GH4 footage

90fps at 1080p, 4k-uncompressed with ext recorder all under 2k and similar weight as gh3... canon charging 14k for a c300 that does whopping 60fps at 720p is a laugh even though the image is nice and form factor.
 
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DennyR

Active Member
Unless you are regularly working in the film industry I cant see any need for using a Red especially unless you have perfect stability in the gimbal which is not possible with the .5 degree limit on brushless rez. (So wide angle shooting only).

The new Sony 4K camcorder with image stab built in and zoomable; will in all probability outperform it anyway in terms of practical use and it only costs around 2K.
Everything looks crap on vimeo/youtube so unless you or your client are going to view it on a nice 4K TV that costs around 4K......

Check out Apples new video that was shot in one day with an iphone. It is the man behind the camera not the camera.......
 
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sk8brd

Member
You will still need a good gimbal for the sony to work well the built in image stab is not enough just look at other sony handy cams people used on the cinestars the pj something or other. The gh4 with a zen will be enough for me and i believe a lot of people.
 


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sk8brd

Member
Quinton- the link i posted a couple post's up is arial footage with the gh4 i edited my post forgot that minor detail. ;0
 

Q

Quinton

Active Member
sk8brd said:
Quinton- the link i posted a couple post's up is arial footage with the gh4 i edited my post forgot that minor detail. ;0
Click to expand...

So you did.apologies, now hopefully we can keep this thread GH4 free, and have a new one somewhere :)
 

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DennyR

Active Member
I seem to remember that Holgar got the old Sony HDR CX730 to work at full zoom and his gimbal is far from being good.

One would have to hope that the new Sony is better.
 
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sk8brd

Member
I was really impressed with the sony 4k handy cam test the resolution was great and it was pretty light if i recall. i have seen decent results on the radian setups with those handy cams but yet see anything is good out of the box as zenmuse or movi setups. it's too bad the zen is so restricted in terms of what cams could be used i'm sure the handy cams would sing on a zen.
 


seattle_helo

seattle_helo

Member
4K is absolutely here to stay and has been here for a while, really. For serious production its typical to acquire in the highest resolution possible to give options later in post. The mindset is better to have as much information as possible to start because it allows for the best output later. Even for stuff not heavily effects driven or manipulated it allows for simple yet valuable creative changes like repositioning or resizing the frame for final output. No matter what happens in the consumer space 4K will be a preferred production format for years to come. We pretty much only fly Epics and Scarlets now as that's what our clients request.

Yuri, even without a true 4K monitor it is a richer image. But for sure a 4K image on a 4K monitor is stunning. Still not real common on set but with more and less expensive options coming from Sony and Panasonic they will be over time.

nick
 

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sk8brd

Member
youtube can play higher then 1080p you can see the difference even without a 4k monitor but i have never seen a true 4k display with 4k footage closest was a retina iPad. i checked out this sony test on an iPad and it looked almost 3d. if you look at 1:12 the cows head to me- imho- look sharper at 1080p then any other 1080p i have seen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEYhkvZEVN4
 

DucktileMedia

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
Fascinating. That video does seem to be very high detail. I guess there is something in starting with more pixels and compressing to the same destination resolution that shows more detail. I woukdnt have expected that. Either that or the camera manufacturers pay a bunch of money to do some special pay only format. :)
 

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daniel

Member
Well, if a client asks for 4K, i dont have to stress flying a 20K dollar camera like epic or scarlet......i just fly the GH4....!! i dont need a huge octo now for 4K, just my hexa or my big Quad......

Finally a lightweight 4K !!!
 

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