1st copter build (Tarot 680) - criticism needed

[DenisDespair]

Hello.
I've already asked some silly questions in the photography tread. After some reading I've decided to built my own copter from parts. It will be used for still landscape photography with Sony NEX6 + 16-50 lens.

All criticism and suggestions for improvements are VERY WELCOME, just keep in mind somewhat limited budget. Here are details worth 1.5k USD without VAT. Probably, a couple of hundreds can be added if needed. But I would very much like to use ready-made solutions, without soldering or programming.

Frame
Tharot FY680
HML650 landing gear

Motors
I don't understand anything about motors and props and their compatibility. If you can suggest anything better - let me know
Turnigy 3508-580KV motors
12x4.5 SF carbon props
Afro ESC 30

Copter power supply
Turnigy 4s 5000mAh battery or can"bigger"12Ah battery be better? It has more energy but heavier. Does it improve flying time?
iMax charger
iMax Charger power supply

Camera gimbal
Storm Eye Gimbal for 5N
Quanum 4008 motors
Gimbal control board
Do I need any separate receiver for this board?

Copter electronics
DJI Naza M V2
Do I understand correctly that thiz Naza already has control board, so I don't need an extra one? Do I need some laptop to program this Naza controller in the field?
Copter transmitter Turnigy 9XR
Copter transmitter battery 3s 2200mAh
Copter receiver

FPV
Camera transmitter TGYi6
Sony HDMI converter + IR shutter release
AV transmitter FatShark
Monitor with receiver
Monitor battery
Monitor mount
Are there any possibility to see video on my android phone instead of carrying separate screen?

Thanks to everybody for comments!

 

[eskil23]

Frame
Tharot FY680
HML650 landing gear

The Tarot 680 already has foldable landing gear, doesn't it?

I don't understand anything about motors and props and their compatibility. If you can suggest anything better - let me know
Turnigy 3508-580KV motors
12x4.5 SF carbon props
Afro ESC 30

Copter power supply
Turnigy 4s 5000mAh battery or can"bigger"12Ah battery be better? It has more energy but heavier. Does it improve flying time?
iMax charger
iMax Charger power supply

I don't know what the maximum voltage is for the 3508-motors. Perhaps you can use 6S-batteries?

Storm Eye Gimbal for 5N
Quanum 4008 motors
Gimbal control board
Do I need any separate receiver for this board?

That depends. If you are going to use a two-man operation with one transmitter for flying the copter and one for controlling the camera, then I think it is recomendable. This is good for filming, but since you are only going to shoot stills, I think one receiver / one transmitter would be ok.

This looks like a 2D-gimbal, not a 3D. Also less need for a second operator since you can not control the camera in yaw, only tilt. You need to turn the whole copter to pan.

DJI Naza M V2
Do I understand correctly that thiz Naza already has control board, so I don't need an extra one? Do I need some laptop to program this Naza controller in the field?

Well, NAZA is a control board. I don't know what else you need. There are two ports on the NAZA for conrolling the gimbal in roll and pitch.

Copter transmitter Turnigy 9XR
Copter transmitter battery 3s 2200mAh
Copter receiver

I think eight channels can be a stretch. You'll need four for basic flight conrol (yaw, roll, pitch and lift) one for camera tilt, one for camera remote shutter, one for the landing gear and one for the mode switch (GPS, ATTI or manual). That's eight right there. I don't know if you need more channels for IOC or failsafe switches.

 

[DenisDespair]

The Tarot 680 already has foldable landing gear, doesn't it?

True, my bad. Thanks for pointing!

I don't know what the maximum voltage is for the 3508-motors. Perhaps you can use 6S-batteries?

No, these motors are for 3-4s batteries. I've selected them because they were recommended by support team for this frame

That depends. If you are going to use a two-man operation with one transmitter for flying the copter and one for controlling the camera, then I think it is recomendable. This is good for filming, but since you are only going to shoot stills, I think one receiver / one transmitter would be ok.

This looks like a 2D-gimbal, not a 3D. Also less need for a second operator since you can not control the camera in yaw, only tilt. You need to turn the whole copter to pan.

Well, NAZA is a control board. I don't know what else you need. There are two ports on the NAZA for conrolling the gimbal in roll and pitch.

I think eight channels can be a stretch. You'll need four for basic flight conrol (yaw, roll, pitch and lift) one for camera tilt, one for camera remote shutter, one for the landing gear and one for the mode switch (GPS, ATTI or manual). That's eight right there. I don't know if you need more channels for IOC or failsafe switches.

Yes, I'll work alone. It would be great if I can manage with only one transmitter, less weight to carry outdoors.
So, if I understand correctly, I can just take the above mentioned Turnigy 9XR and it will be totally enough?

 

[eskil23]

Yes, I'll work alone. It would be great if I can manage with only one transmitter, less weight to carry outdoors. So, if I understand correctly, I can just take the above mentioned Turnigy 9XR and it will be totally enough?

I think so. I'll let someone with a bit more insight tell you if you are going to need more channels for failsafe etc.
I decided to go for the Turnigy TGY-i10 instead. It has one more channel and also support for telemetry (so I won't need a iOSD mini).

 

[AzViper]

You may want to look at the Taranis X9D transmitter. You can bind two eight channel receivers giving you 16 controllable channels. Also I would really consider using two battery packs in parallel to safe guard in the event a cell within a battery pack fails of which would bring the copter down using one battery pack.

Remember you get what you pay for. I see lots of things I would upgrade on, but I understand your on a budget. At the end I just don't think your going to be happy with the results. My guess is the copter will be overweight for the amount of thrust that the motors can provide. Do you have spec's of the motors? Most quality motor suppliers will give you charts like below so that can figure the thrust per each motor then multiply by 6 to give you the thrust at different percentages at prop sizes. All this info is needed including total weight of the copter.

This chart is for T Motors 3508 580FV. These motors only give you 360g of thrust at 50% for a total of 2160g. 360x6 = 2160g. Remember you want 20% more thrust at 50% than what your copter weighs. Even these motors with the largest prop recommended is not enough thrust.

A quick check and this is just the parts and your copter is at 2800 grams without the camera and additional items. You need to go back to the drawing board as its not going to fly... Once you start building your going to add even more weight. This was only figuring a single battery.

My guess is your copter is going to weigh over 4000 grams when finished as the camera weighs 360 grams. Remember you need to take the thrust at 50% of each motor x 6 and then figure another 20% of wiggle room. Bottom line and this is only a guess due to not knowing your true flying weight but you would need to have motors that can deliver 800 grams plus per each motor at 50% throttle. By going larger on props will increase the thrust, but this info. can be found in the motor charts of the quality motor suppliers.

Going with larger motors is going to require larger ESC's and possibly higher voltage batteries.

Have you even added up the weight of all this gear and entered the data in http://www.ecalc.ch/

 

[Motopreserve]

The 680 with those motors will not lift the Sony Nex with a larger lens, and the gimbal it will take to balance it.

You're going to need to step up a notch at least to the Tarot 810. Do some research about the motors/props combo, and what thrust they provide - because that's what will determine everything else. Base your choices on the thrust of that combo and fill the rest in around it.

You'll probably want to look at some lower KV motors that can spin 15" props (maybe 14" depending on your all up weight) to get the weight off the ground, with 50% thrust left over. Shoot for hover at 50% and you will be in the safest zone.

 

[DenisDespair]

You may want to look at the Taranis X9D transmitter. You can bind two eight channel receivers giving you 16 controllable channels.

Thanks for tip and very detailed explanation!

Also I would really consider using two battery packs in parallel to safe guard in the event a cell within a battery pack fails of which would bring the copter down using one battery pack.

Do I need some special controller to have two batteries working simultaneously?

I see lots of things I would upgrade on, but I understand your on a budget. At the end I just don't think your going to be happy with the results.

Well, in case of real necessity the whole project and budget can be seriously reconsidered. What exactly would you improve? And what is estimate of sufficient budget? 2.5 k USD? or more?

Ok, I'll check different motors with higher voltage. I received an answer with suggestion to switch to bigger and heavier copter. Can you recommend any kind of clearly written FAQ websites on selecting components and copter building? Thanks!

 

[DenisDespair]

You're going to need to step up a notch at least to the Tarot 810.

At least? Do you mean that the bigger - the better and I should consider T1000?

 

[Motopreserve]

You need to figure out the payload you'd like to carry, and then determine if you'll need 6 or 8 motor/props to lift it. If you hone in on a total weight, you can make decisions about motors and props, and which frame is best to handle it. You will definitely be able to lift the sony nex with a typical gimbal (I'm not familiar with yours) with a hex. It will save you money over an 8, but obviously you need to count your grams.

Best bet is to make a spreadsheet of all the equipment you'll be using and it's weight. Then let us know where you're at.

 

[AzViper]

DD,

Every component will list the flying weight. Is this the camera your using? Remember even changing the focal length on the camera of which extends the lens out will have an affect on the gimbal and your CG. If this is the camera I looked and its 360 grams. Its all about counting grams. Every power connector, wire, etc. is all going to add weight. As for connecting two batteries you solder up a simple Y connector to connect two batteries into one connector.

I am in the process of building a higher end quad copter that will lift a GoPro, but I am using motors I can use on a larger copter down the road, KDE Motors, 4014XF-380KV with the KDEXF-UA35 XF UAS ESC's.

My Build, http://multirotorforums.com/threads/tarot-650-build-parts-are-arriving.21833/

 

[Motopreserve]

Looks like AZ and I are heading in the same direction. Sorry if my last post was scattered... Typed it pre-coffee

The Sony site has the camera weight listed as 345 grams with battery and media. Now you just need the weight of everything else to make a good decision about your power.

The other thing you need to do is figure out the ceiling for your budget. I recall you mentioning $1500. Maybe a bit more. Obviously this will factor into the build as well.

I have a couple KDE rigs as well, and I'm not sure you can get better with a motor choice. But with that comes higher cost. A choice that is on the lower end of the spectrum is SunnySky. Much cheaper than KDE/T-Motor/Avroto but very good quality compared to most of the Hobby King stuff.

Weight and cost, weight and cost, weight and cost.... It's a constant juggling act

 

[eskil23]

At least? Do you mean that the bigger - the better and I should consider T1000?

Well, the T1000 can lift about 1 kg of payload. That is enough to lift a full size DSLR. I estimate your NEX + gimbal will be roughly half of that. I think the 680 is up to it, but you won't get any impressive flight-time out of it. But since you are not going to shoot video you are not going to need that much. Get it up and into position, aim the camera, get the shot and back. Use the 5000 mAh battery.

 

[Motopreserve]

The thing to keep in mind is that it's the motor/prop combo that will be the limitation imposed by the frame. The 680pro that I have has a max prop size of 13". The specs for the SunnySky motor (which should be about the same as the Turnigy) is 400g at 50% throttle with 13" on 4S. That would give you a rig capable of lifting a total of about 2400g.

My Tarot rig with Sony nex 5 (slightly heavier), gimbal and 2 x 4S 5100mah batts was 3700 grams. That's not counting wiring - but it was pretty inclusive of everything else (FC, ESCs, props, motors etc).

Might be able to get away with the smaller frame with the lower KV motors as mentioned earlier. For example the Sunnysky V3508 380kv can produce nearly 600g thrust with a 12" prop. But that also requires stepping up to the 6S. Even these changes wil be very tight to the thrust value.

 

[AzViper]

His best bet would be to step up to the 810, swing a larger prop, go 6s, and find the correct motor/prop/voltage combination for total weight. The 680 frame is limited to prop size unless the carbon fiber tubes are changed out to longer tubes, but why... I would scrap the entire build and start all over.

 

[Motopreserve]

His best bet would be to step up to the 810, swing a larger prop, go 6s, and find the correct motor/prop/voltage combination for total weight. The 680 frame is limited to prop size unless the carbon fiber tubes are changed out to longer tubes, but why... I would scrape the entire build and start all over.

Agreed. Just easier to start fresh, with a good spread sheet of the components weight and cost, and see where you're at.

 

[AzViper]

DD,

There is a build called Tarot 810 Build just a few threads down. Tim just changed the motors to T Motors 4014 400kv. He got a smokin deal on the motors. You may want to take a look his build.

 

[DenisDespair]

Well, let's look from the other side regardless of the cost issue
I'm still confused about the components, particularly camera gimbal. My camera+lens is 460 g. Typical 2D gimbals with motors are usually another half a kilo. So 1 kg of load.
Assuming, that T810 frame is better due to possibility to use 6s batteries and 15" props, I would estimate the following weights
-Frame 1 kg
-Batteries 5 Ah 2x0.8kg=1.6 kg
-Naza M V2 0.1 kg
-Other electronics.. let's say 0.1-0.2 kg.
---Total almost 4 kg without motors

Now some thought regarding motors. T-motors seem to be good choice due to their high quality. Moreover, they are distributed within Europe by aerolab.de (so, I don't need to pay VAT). If we select 15*5 props, then we have the following options:
1. MT 4008 380 KV with 0.88 kg thrust at 50%. It gives over 5 kg thrust while motors with ESC's will have weight 0.8 kg (4.8 total copter weight)
2. MN 4014 400 KV with 1.25 kg thrust at 50% or 7.5 kg overall thrust. These motors are a bit heavier, 1 kg together with ESC's, or 5kg total copter weight. Therefore, in this case I will have for sure enough power to lift my set-up. Looks like a good option, isn't it?

 

[eskil23]

I see that MT 4008 is a "Professional Series" motor while MN 4014 is a "Navigator series" motor. Can anyone please explain the difference between the Professional-, Navigator- and Antigravity-series?

 

[AzViper]

The T Motor 4014-400KV will give you plenty of room in total thrust for those unseen extra grams that will come to play during the build.

 

[Motopreserve]

Make sure you calculate your build weight as close to exact as possible (that's why I suggested the spread sheet). When you determine the thrust needed to lift it - choose the motors/prop that provide thrust closest to that number. It's ok to have a little more power than you need, but you want the power to be very close to hover at 50% - not 35% and not 70%.

Any discrepancy between needed thrust and the AUW should be dealt with by propping up or down.