To ALL UK operators




Bowley

Bowley

Member
CAA have not been consistent in there use of definitions: SUA and SUSA, and this leads to confusion when reading:

6.1.2 The standard CAA permission for SUA in the 7 kg or less category allows flight within
congested areas to within 50 metres of persons, structures etc. (or within 30 metres if the
persons are under the control of the person in charge of the aircraft). This category cannot fly
within 150 m of open-air assemblies of 1,000 people or more.


6.1.3 A SUSA in the weight category 7-20 kg is not normally allowed to fly within congested areas.
An operator may apply to the CAA to have their existing permission varied for specific flights
dependent on a number of factors detailed below at paragraphs 6.2 and 6.3. These variations
are currently granted only on an exceptional basis and should not be relied upon by the
operator as the foundation of their business model.

So first reading that I thought OK you can fly a SUA ie an RC Aircraft not equiped to gather information, ie a camera, in a park or area 50m clear of blah blah blah......(even here this info contradicts the info in that table where it indicates no distance minima for SUA <7kg).
But you cannot fly a SUSA under the same circumstances if it >7kg, so what about SUSA <7kg? Have they just been inconsistent in definition and regarding a SUSA as SUA
I know it all seems ridiculous and splitting hairs but these definitions can possibly mean the difference between prosecution, and no doubt resulting non-issue of future permission, and walking free, if the sh*t hits the fan, and not to mention insurance claims. Although I guess its academic as its what is written on the CAA PFAW Cert that we have to stick by.

The key definition is left open to interpretation, this being 'substantially' when refering to ‘Congested Area’ means any area in relation to a city, town or
settlement which is substantially used for residential, industrial, commercial or recreational.
purposes. We need some tangible guidelines, what is not substantial to you or me may be substantial to the CAA. And yes it is a tough one to quantify. I'm sure I am not alone in operating my SUSA and uncomfortably thinking to myself, I'm not totally sure this is within regs.

Thats just my Twa Bobs worth.
 
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Benjamin Kenobi

Benjamin Kenobi

Easy? You call that easy?
I'm glad I stayed under 7Kg. All still the same for me.

Dave - I use the RCexplorer 2.4GHz scanner if that makes any difference. Works well.
 

soler

soler

Member
Metageek have a product called Wi-SPy which is a USB spectrum analyser while not cheap at $450 is is not several thousand for an Agilent or the likes , this is designed for improving WiFI networks. The difficulty that I see with the RF Interference section in the CAA is two fold,

1) How to determine what levels will provide a reduced rate of operating range, unless you have access to be able to generate RF this is going to be a trail by trial process until you find when there is a problem
2) The interference will occur at the aircraft and not typically at the point of measurement i.e ground level. How would you measure the RF interference over the flight path without flying it?

I would suggest that a low power range test would be more practical and beneficial. any other thoughts?

http://www.metageek.net
 


Benjamin Kenobi

Benjamin Kenobi

Easy? You call that easy?
That's the one. Same shop too.

You are basically just looking for saturation of your control frequency. I just check any noise is less than the peaks of my transmitter signal. All I ever detect is wireless signals, which have limited range. Bluetooth shows up a little too but is very weak.
 

Akermay

Akermay

Member
Ben I think you may be confused (and I wouldn't blame you, I am too)!

The information notice states SUA under 7KG is allowed to fly in congested areas. However, SUSA (anything with a camera) must acquire additional permission to fly in congested areas.

We are just trying to work our the best way to get these varied permissions/exemptions now. We are in the process of submitting our operations manual but are unsure what additional material we need to submit to request these permissions. Any help would be appreciated.
 

Benjamin Kenobi

Benjamin Kenobi

Easy? You call that easy?
Hey mate,

No, I'm not confused. Requiring additional permission means you are allowed to fly. Not allowed to fly means 'no way under any circumstances.' Which of my posts were you referring to anyway? I don't even discuss that in this thread. Please use the quote button where possible. That CAA release just reiterates what we already do!

The additional permission is really easy to get and can take as little as a few hours. You just have to fill out an Enhanced Non-Standard Flight Clearance form on the NATS website.

Having flown in London and other congested areas many times I am quite sure it is permitted or they wouldn't issue the permissions.

It is hard to get congested areas into your very first ops manual. It's best not to include it and then ask for permission each time, which is really easy.
 

Akermay

Akermay

Member
Benjamin Kenobi said:
Hey mate,

No, I'm not confused. Requiring additional permission means you are allowed to fly. Not allowed to fly means 'no way under any circumstances.' Which of my posts were you referring to anyway? I don't even discuss that in this thread. Please use the quote button where possible. That CAA release just reiterates what we already do!

The additional permission is really easy to get and can take as little as a few hours. You just have to fill out an Enhanced Non-Standard Flight Clearance form on the NATS website.

Having flown in London and other congested areas many times I am quite sure it is permitted or they wouldn't issue the permissions.

It is hard to get congested areas into your very first ops manual. It's best not to include it and then ask for permission each time, which is really easy.
Click to expand...

Sorry Ben, I didn't mean to offend. Reading back I was a little brash in my assumptions. Just trying to work things out in my own head having read and been told a lot of contradicting info. Thanks for the tips, I'll take a good look into the flight clearance forms.
 

Benjamin Kenobi

Benjamin Kenobi

Easy? You call that easy?
No probs mate. Sorry I had a hissy fit! Such a princess today for some reason!! :nevreness:

I had exactly the same questions in the beginning. The CAA is way more accommodating than they appear on paper, I honestly wouldn't worry about it. Not every job will be in a congested area. For me it's just been a small percentage of them.

Get your permissions and then worry about the other stuff. Cool?
 

Akermay

Akermay

Member
Gotcha! Its just little seems there is extra complications for us as we're flying over 7Kg. Regardless, we'll get our ops manual submitted as is and work from there.
 

Benjamin Kenobi

Benjamin Kenobi

Easy? You call that easy?
Ah, I see. It'll be a little more difficult then. I believe in the near future they will bring in airworthiness certificates for the 7-20Kg category if operating in a congested area.
 

B

baja-king

Here for the ride :)
With reference to section 2.1:

"SUA’ means any unmanned aircraft, other than a balloon or a kite, having a mass of not more than 20 kg without its fuel but including any articles or equipment installed in or attached to the aircraft at the commencement of its flight. The majority of such SUA are of the electrically-powered ‘multi-rotor’ type whose typical flight endurance with a payload is in the order of 6-15 minutes."

Are we to consider Lipo Batteries as 'Fuel'...?! I include them in my AUW
 

Benjamin Kenobi

Benjamin Kenobi

Easy? You call that easy?
baja-king said:
With reference to section 2.1:

"SUA’ means any unmanned aircraft, other than a balloon or a kite, having a mass of not more than 20 kg without its fuel but including any articles or equipment installed in or attached to the aircraft at the commencement of its flight. The majority of such SUA are of the electrically-powered ‘multi-rotor’ type whose typical flight endurance with a payload is in the order of 6-15 minutes."

Are we to consider Lipo Batteries as 'Fuel'...?! I include them in my AUW
Click to expand...

No, the electrical charge is fuel, the lipos themselves are more like a fuel tank.

You're right to include them in your AUW.

Also, because I think it's weird, an SUA doesn't have a camera. An SUSA does. How weird they make that distinction! Not confusing at all...
 


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